Student: So my main disagreement with you is that when you talk about institutional
racism, I know you point out that there are individual instances of racism, but I definitely
do believe that there is institutional racism.
The reason why I say that is because when you look at what the FBI released in 2006,
when they said that white supremacists were invading police departments, or when James
Comey said that there is a history minorities being targeted by police, and that our history
with minorities is not pretty.
And then you also look at Supreme Court rulings where they say that certain state governments
in the United States are literally, with surgical precision, trying to limit the African American
and minority vote, it begs the question, how you can you say that there is no institutional
racism when these institutions themselves are confessing that we're doing these things.
And yes, they are being checked at times, but these things are happening.
Ben Shapiro: So there are a couple separate questions there, because there are specific
data points you're mentioning there, the 2006 FBI report, the Supreme Court decisions on
the Voting Rights Act, and the rewriting of the voting rights act.
So as far as the Voting Rights Act goes, there is not a lot of evidence to suggest that black
votes are being undercounted in Southern States.
The evidence is very scanty there.
Justice Scalia's, I think he wrote descent in that case, actually it would have been
majority opinion in that case because they struck down the VRA, is pretty telling and
has a lot of countervailing data on that, so its worth reading.
As far as the idea that institutional racism, so here is my general view on institutional
racism.
When I say there are individuals inside, I'm not saying individuals don't exist inside
departments.
I'm sure there are some cops who are racist.
The question is, how do we fight racism.
When we say institutional racism, the problem is theres no way for me to fight that with
you because its too vague.
So if you say a particular institution is racist, and then demonstrate to me the evidence
that the institution is racist, not that its badly policed, not that its incompetent, because
there are police departments that are incompetent, but that there is actual motivated racism
there, then we can do something about it, and I'll stand right along side you.
But my problem is that when people say institutional racism, it seems to me a broad rubric under
which they can subsume all complaints about American society or the cops.
So you'll have situations where a black guy gets shot by the cops, and the first reaction
is not, was the cop incompetent, it was, the cop had to be racist because it was a white
cop and a black guy.
And so what you've seen is the DOJ, in some cases, like for example, the Seattle Police
Department, they'll say that theres institutional bias, but then they'll provide no actual evidence
of institutional bias, they'll just say disproportionate number of black people were imprisoned or
arrested by the police department.
Well, is it possible that a disproportionate number of black people were criminals in Seattle?
Sure, I mean thats actually what they found in 1994.
They thought that there was institutional racism at the Highway Patrol in New Jersey,
theres a federal case about it.
And what they ended up finding, they did a study, that they then tried to quash, and
what the study found was that they were actually under-profiling black people, that there were
just more black people speeding in New Jersey.
So, the point that I guess I'm making here is that, its great that you're coming up here
and citing individual instances of data, and I want to look at each of those instances
of data, I don't want to say that there's broad institutional racism in
the United States because then you have to name to me the exact institution, and you
have to name to me how its spread throughout that institution, and not just individuals
within that institution, and then we can change it.
So thats an institution that has racism, thats not the same thing as arguing that there is
institutional racism within the United States as a general rule, because that suggests that
America is generally racist, which is something with which I disagree.
Student: Okay, so I might agree with you there, that there are instances of America where
its not generally racist, but in those cases, when we do discuss that racism in that institution,
its hard, right, as a black person, because you're told that you cannot discuss this because
you're calling out people, like, when you start talking about white supremacists in
these organizations, not to say that all cops are white supremacists, but they are there.
Like there are some that were invading, like you said.
Ben Shapiro: Right, and if you find the cop whose a white supremacist, again, I'm willing
to stand by you.
The problem is when you make blanket statements, like, there are cops who are white supremacists.
I'm willing to say that there are, but the percentage matters here.
Like are we talking about 70%, or are we talking about 1 guy.
And that I think is the big debate here, and so thats why whenever I have these conversations,
I try to narrow it down to, what's the most specific thing we can talk about that we can
solve together, because I promise you I will go out there with you and protest a racist
shooting.
Like when Walter Scott was shot in South Carolina, I'm on your side.
I'm on the side of the person who was shot, because thats a terrible shoot.
Everyone saw that was a terrible shoot.
But when people say that what happened in Ferguson Missouri with Michael Brown, when
they say it was hands up don't shoot, that's white racism, there's no evidence of that
whatsoever, and that was actually an attempt to get a cop on the basis of really bad evidence.
So I think that its incumbent on us to actually show our work.
Instead of just saying institutional racism, lets go out and protest, lets find the specific
instance and then we can solve it.
Then we can solve the problem together.
Student: Okay, last question.
So essentially, yeah, just to add on to that.
So I do agree but then often times when we start protesting, we start doing these things,
there is this general fear that there is this conversation where its already looked at as
we're delegitimized, because African Americans are just going crazy, black people are just
going crazy, and all these things.
And its hard to have dialogue.
Ben Shapiro: If that happens thats wrong.
I think that it depends on the nature of the protest, so my problem with the Black Lives
Matter movement, as a general matter, to take an example is that when you say things like
Black Lives Matter, the implication is not, that other lives don't matter as much.
The suggestion is that there is a bunch of people, a large swath of people in America
who don't care about Black Lives.
Thats the implication.
And I don't think thats true.
I don't think thats true.
I think we all care about black lives, and I think that if the question were, what should
we do about this particular shooting, thats one thing, but if the idea is that cops are
shooting black people because black people are black people, I don't see any statistical
evidence of a trend of that.
So thats the problem with BLM.
BLM tries to draw trends from an anecdote.
You want to protest the anecdote, I'll protest the anecdote with you.
You want to protest the trend, you first have to identify statistically the trend exists.
Sorry, I don't want to cut you off, but I appreciate it.
(Applause)
Student: Okay, so i'll just finish off with this.
So on the Black Lives Matter trend, yes we do need to look at cases individually, and
yes we do to, because sometimes there is this effect where you wanna call racists immediately
racism, and I agree with you, thats wrong.
But, I'm just saying that I feel that sometimes it becomes counterproductive, when constantly
people are trying to defend these things, and people are trying to fight these things,
and automatically the conversation is shaped in such a way that that these far alt right
extremists, these far alt left extremists....
Ben Shapiro: Right, I think the biggest the biggest problem when it comes to language,
and I'll finish with this, I'm sorry, but the biggest problem there, as you notice I
keep trying to peg down as exactly as we can, the instances we're talking about, and the
language that we're referring to.
And I think that movements have a hard time pegging that down.
And you see that from movements all over the country.
When you make a claim as broad as, American society doesn't care about the lives of black
people, black lives matter, a lot of people are going to get pissed at that, and I think
they have a right to be pissed at that.
Student: Okay, thank you Ben.
Ben Shapiro: Thanks
(Applause)
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