But if you eat in a healthful way you can
make those genes irrelevant to a great degree.
So
how much cholesterol do you want in your diet -
none.
How much animal fat do you want?
You don't
want any.
You want to protect you blood vessels
and that means a simple healthy vegan diet.
Generally healthy practice is not what the
patient wants.
The patient says 'I want you to
save my brain'.
And the reaction is 'I can't do
that'.
So that's where the nutrition part comes
in.
To say that nutrition doesn't matter or that
saturated fat doesn't matter or just eat butter
and eat meat and so on is to leave people first
of all - they're been lying to.
"#00:00:44-3# Niko: Herzlich willkommen zum "
Plant-Based-Symposium, wo wir mit Medizinern und
Ern�hrungsfachkr�ften �ber die Vorteile einer
pflanzlichen Ern�hrung sprechen.
Jetzt im
Anschluss sprechen wir mit Dr. Neal Barnard �ber
die Vorteile der pflanzlichen Ern�hrung in der
Pr�vention und Therapie von Alzheimer, Diabetes
und anderen Erkrankungen und wir gucken uns die
biochemischen Mechanismen an, warum es manchen
Leuten so schwer f�llt, K�se aus ihrem Speiseplan
zu verbannen.
Viel Spa� beim nachfolgenden Video
"und bis gleich.
#00:01:10-9# Dr. Barnard: I'm a "
physician here in Washington D.C. my own faculty
at the medical school at the George Washington
University and in 1985 I founded the physicians
committee for responsible medicine which is a
group of doctors, it's gradually growing, and we
have all kinds of supporters including
non-physicians as well and we support good
nutrition, preventive medicine, we do chronical
research studies, we have a whole department that
promotes alternatives to the use of animals and
we have a medical center here as well.
So it's a
"busy place.
#00:01:43-7# Niko: That sounds "
excellent, thank you very much.
Could you tell us
"how does diabetes evolve?
#00:01:48-1# Dr. "
Barnard: Yes - Diabetes is a very common
condition and it's getting much more common.
And
the main kind of diabetes that we're thinking
about is called type-2-diabetes that occurs in
adults.
It's historically been thought of - when
people are overweight, they develop diabetes -
and it's described as a condition where there is
too much sugar in the blood - that's glucose.
So
many people then don't eat starchy foods or
sugary foods, because these will add sugar to the
blood.
However, a number of years ago a search
just discovered that the reason that glucose
builds up in the blood, is because the cells of
the muscles and cells of the liver are filled
with fat and because they're filled with fat,
they can't take the sugar in.
Insulin, which is a
hormone that's supposed to help sugar get into
the cells, isn't working as long as there is only
fat droplets in the cells.
So what that means is
that the diet that's really good for type-2
diabetes is a plant based diet with no animal
products at all.
It means that we don't eat
animal fat and also we keep the vegetable oils
and oily foods very low and what we believe
happens, is that that makes the insulin work
better.
Your natural Insulin will work better and
the sugar will go from the blood into the cells.
"That's the idea.
#00:03:13-1# Niko: Dr. "
Bernard, just to make this clear, it is not the
glucose that is actually causing diabetes but it
is more the fat as you explained in your book?
"#00:03:20-5#
Dr. Barnard: And I don't need to "
say that people shouldn't have sodas and sugary
foods, that's all unhealthy food - but the cause
of this where it seems to start it off, is by
eating these fatty foods it comes up to works of
the cell.
And you see this in a country like
Japan, that historically has a eaten a lot of
carbohydrate a lot of rice for example and had
very little diabetes, until American fast food
companies came in and started bringing in all of
these fatty burgers and chicken nuggets and
cheese and that kind of things.
"#00:03:51-3# Niko: Alright, thank you very much.
"
Could you explain to us what is the difference
between type-1 and type-2 diabetes?
"#00:03:57-1# Dr. Barnard: Sure.
Well type-1 "
diabetes used to be called childhood onset
diabetes and that's where these cells that make
insulin in the pancreas are dead.
They have been
killed off by, what we call an autoimmune
reaction, meaning the body is making antibodies
and what we believe, may start that off, is
either exposure to cow's milk early in life or
perhaps viruses and there is a genetic component,
too, but the question is, which of these things
can you actually change and one great thing to
change is to have all children breastfed by their
mothers and to not introduce cow's milk into
their diet.
And the evidence suggests that if one
were to do that, that one could reduce the
liklihood of developing type 1 diabetes.
"#00:04:51-2# Niko: So if we think about fighting "
diabetes.
The conventional approaches just to cut
back the sugar but what is the problem with this
"kind of approach?
#00:04:58-9# Dr. Barnard: Yes, "
well, the problem with it is, if you use the
conventional approach and you say to the patient:
you have too much sugar in your blood so don't
eat sugar and don't eat starches you will reduce
the amount of glucose that goes into the
bloodstream but you won't be changing the fatty
content of the cell, so you're not getting to the
cause.
And so that person is never going to get
over their disease, they will always have
diabetes.
But on the other hand, if you say let's
focus on cleaning up that cell and getting the
fat off by getting the fat out of your diet, then
you have a chance of improving that diabetes and
sometimes making it go away for all intense and
"purposes.
#00:05:38-5# Niko: So you already "
mentioned the role of genetics in the development
of type-1 diabetes, could you share with us how
big the role of genetics in type-2 diabetes is?
"#00:05:47-4# Dr. Barnard: Well there are genes "
for type-2 diabetes too, but sometimes what you
see going through families is not genetics it's
recipes and tastes for certain kinds of foods.
So
there are genes for many things, but these genes
are not dictated they don't mean you going to
have the disease what they mean is you have an
attendance, but if you eat in a healthful way you
can make those genes irrelevant to a great
"degree.
#00:06:15-0# Niko: And would you be so "
kind to tell us, is there any difference between
the diat from the person that has type-1 diabetes
compared to a person that has type-2
"diabetes?
Dr. Barnard: A persons with a type-1 "
diabetes ought to do the same diet as for type-2
diabetes - it should be a low fat vegan diet -
that's agood advice for everybody whether they
have diabetes or not - but specifically for
type-2 diabetes the person can improve, they can
lose weight and sometimes the disease will go
away.
In type-1 diabetes a low fat vegan diet
will not mean the disease is gone, because they
will always need to administer insulin.
However,
the diet does two things.
Number 1 is it reduces
the amount of insulin you need.
Often quite
quickly and quite dramatically.
Secondly, it
helps you to prevent the complications because
type-1 diabetes - or any kind of diabetes - it
normally is not the high blood sugar that kills
you it's vascular disease, meaning the blood
vessels of the heart or the blood vessels to the
legs or the kidneys are attacked by this disease
and when your kidneys are shut and your heart is
damaged that's the fatal event.
So how much
cholesterol do you want in your diet?
None!
How
much animal fat do you want?
You don't want any!
You want to protect you blood vessels and that
means a simple healthy vegan diet.
"#00:07:39-8# Niko: Alright, thank you very much "
for this one.
If we think about a person with
type-1 diabetes or type-2 diabetes on mediations,
could there be any complications when this person
switches to a low fat planned based diet?
"#00:07:51-8# Dr. Barnard: Let's say I'm taking "
insulin for a type-1 diabetes or you may take
insulin for type-2 diabetes - Insulin is a
powerful drug that will reduce you blood sugar
and you're taking this medication and if you
improve your diet at the same time your blood
sugar can run very low because the medicine is
powerful and so is the diet.
So the answer to
this is, if you have diabetes and you want to
change your diet, which is a really good idea,
talk to your doctor beforehand and say let's keep
in touch, so that when my blood sugar comes down
you can take my medicines bit by bit by bit.
But
it's a mistake to not talk with your physician,
it's also a mistake to just through your
medicines away and say 'I'm just not going to
take them anymore, I'm just going to do the
diet'.
You want to taper off your medications in
a sensible way and do it only when the time is
right.
And don't get me wrong, there are also
going to be plenty of people who continue to need
some medication.
Particular if they've had
diabetes for a long period of time.
"#00:08:57-2# Niko: Alright, thank you very much.
"
Dr. Barnard, you're also an expert in Alzheimer's
disease.
Could you tell us what is Alzheimer's
disease and how does it evolve?
#00:09:05-7#
Dr. Barnard: Alzheimer's is the most common type of
dementia.
Dementia simply means - it's a generic
term - meaning that you had normal brain
functions and you have started to lose that brain
function.
So the most common kind is Alzheimer's
and if you looked at the brain of a person who
had died with Alzheimer's, you would see
abnormalities in the brain.
There are little sort
of microscopic meatballs called Beta-Amyloid
plaques.
In the nerve cells themselves also
changes in the protein that's in there.
And these
are hallmarks of Alzheimer's disease.
And many
drugs have been made to try to turn this disease
around or slow its progression and I have to say
they're not achieving their goals, they really
not.
Frankly, they have been a huge
disappointment.
However, the beautiful optimistic
line of research has all come from nutrition,
which now appears to be quite a powerful force in
Alzheimer's disease.
#00:10:11-8#
Niko: Alright, so for the treatment of Alzheimer's
disease, what is the conventional approach, what
would a normal physician do?
#00:10:19-2#
Dr. Barnard: They don't do much of anything
worthwhile - I don't mean to sound so nihilistic,
but when a doctor gives a patient a diagnosis of
Alzheimer's,they let him know that they going to
need help and that they are going to gradually
lose their brain function and it may occur more
quickly or more slowly, but there is effectively
no intervention.
There are some medications on
the market and they have a very slight
symptomatical effect, but they don't slow the
progression of the disease.
So doctors will
sometimes start that, but you don't get very far.
And you plan for making sure the person has
appropriate assistance and then lots of other
things, like make sure that they get regular
exercise.
And although these are sort of good
generally healthy practices, they're not what the
patient wants.
The patient says I want you to
save my brain.
And the doctor says, I can't do
that.
So that's where the nutrition part comes
"in.
#00:11:13-4# Niko: Yes, so that's the good "
"news.
#00:11:14-7# Dr. Barnard: And nutrition "
really for prevention.
Once the brain is being
destroyed, I don't think that nutrition is going
to help either.
But the big thing is, it looks
like we have a lot of power to make this disease
never happen in the first place.
That's what
completely blew me away and is very exciting.
"#00:11:33-6# Niko: Could you tell us what foods "
or lifestyle habits can potentially contribute to
the development of Alzheimer's disease?
"#00:11:40-4# Dr. Barnard: There was a big study "
in Chicago, Illinois, called "The Chicago health
and aging project".
And in 1993 they started
tracking what people ate.
And as the years went
by Alzheimer's disease was much, much, much more
common in people, who ate a lot of saturated fat.
That's the fat that is in dairy products
especially, also in meat.
The disease was much
less common in people who avoided those foods.
There is much more in that but that's kind of the
first take-home message.
So it made you think
Well, maybe we should skip the cheese and the
meat and that kind of thing' but then it went
further.
They looked at what they called trans
fats.
Trans fats are in some snack foods and
pastries and they found essentially the same
pattern - those are bad, too.
And then there are
a number of protective things like Vitamin E for
example, which is in nuts and in seeds, seem to
cut the risk of Alzheimer's by 50%.
Physical
activity - in other studies - seem to help, too.
And the amazing thing was, when people were
starting to have the first bits of memory loss,
that researchers at the University of Illinois
asked these people to exercise; a 40 minute brisk
walk 3 times a week and gradually working up to
that.
And after a year's time, they showed their
memories were better and the brain shrinkage in
certain parts of the brain that are involved in
memory - the shrinkage was actually being
reversed.
That's all optimistic.
So when I take
this to me is that if we want to prevent this
disease we should practice the same guide of
changes like for heart patients: plant based
diet, keep the oils low, healthy simple foods,
regular exercise and we should think about this
as a prevention model.
Once a person is really
into serious dementia, I am not terribly hopeful
that this will reverse the disease.
#00:13:45-5#
Niko: Can you share with us in one of your talks
you spoke about the role of iron and copper in
the development of Alzheimer's disease.
#00:13:53-8#
Dr. Barnard: When you look into the
brains of people with Alzheimer's, it is not just
a question of saturated fats, which I mentioned
earlier . The researches have been looking at
metals in the brain.
Iron is one, copper is
another, aluminum is another and there are others
as well.
Basically to make it simple, copper and
iron are metals that your body needs a little bit
of, tiny traces.
If you have too much of them,
they're toxic and we learned about this decades
ago with iron.
In the same way that iron will
rust, it will oxidize in a frying pan for
example.
In your body iron molecules oxidize,
too, and when that happens, they release free
radicals, which are damaging molecules inside
your body.
Copper does the same thing.
If you
have a copper coin or copper pipes, you could see
how they turn dark colored, that's oxidation and
that happens to the copper in your body.
So what
we feel is important, is to have just a little
bit of copper in foods a little bit of iron in
foods but not having excess.
Where would I get
excess?
Well, let's say you're a meat eater and
you're now getting the iron from meat - which in
the 1950s we thought was a great advantage.
Now,
we know it's too much.
If you get iron from green
leafy vegetables or beans, there is plenty of
iron in there but it is in the form of what's
called non-heme-iron, which the name is
unimportant, what's important is your body will
regulate it.
It's the kind of iron where, if your
body already has too much, your body will keep
the non-heme iron out to a degree.
If you need
more your body will take in more.
The heme-iron
in meat, your body can't regulate so long, it
just comes all in.
So bottom line - all these
things are basically saying that a plant based
diet is still a good way to go.
One quick word
about aluminum: The jury is still out, we don't
yet know for sure if it's a problem, but my
suggestion is that people avoid aluminum, because
it will be a long time before scientist will be
definitive.
That means avoid aluminum pans, means
don't wrap your food in aluminum foil, if it's
any kind of acidic food that will make the foil
dissolve, don't take antacids that have aluminum
in them, some of them do and look for it on
labels, avoid any kind of aluminum containing in
food.
And if you're not sure about your water
supply- tap water in many municipalities has
aluminum added to remove sediment.
And if they
don't clean the aluminum out, it will come out of
your kitchen tap.
So you might want to drink
bottled water in that case.
#00:16:41-4#
Niko: Ok thank you very much.
It's a great point.
Can
you share with us, you already mentioned the role
of vitamin E in the development of Alzheimer's
disease, but this is in terms of vitamin E in
foods, is there any science regarding vitamin E
in supplements.
Is it somehow differently?
#00:16:57-2#
Dr. Barnard: It's a great question.
Vitamin E can be bought in a supplement, but in
nature there are 8 different forms of it.
In a
pill there might be 1 maybe 2.
And you can go to
the store and you take a huge amount of that one
Vitamin E form in the pill that will suppress
your absorption of the other forms.
So it does
more harm than good.
And the same is true with
beta-carotene.
Years ago we discovered that when
people take a pill of just beta-carotene, it
suppresses your absorption of all the other
carotenoid chemicals that are in nature.
On the
other hand if you eat a carrot or eat other
vegetables, you get the natural balance of
carotenoids.
So back to Vitamin E. If I have
walnuts or almonds or seeds for that matter, you
get the different forms of Vitamin E that nature
makes, and you get them in the balance that human
beings have evolved with, rather than doing
something unnatural, which you take that pill and
it's completely out of balance and your body
doesn't react well to or your body suppresses the
absorption of the other forms.
#00:18:12-6#
Niko: Alright, thank you very much
for making this one clear.
If we now come to food
addiction, many people are having a hard time
giving up cheese when they go to a plant based
diet and now in your newest book called "The
cheese trap" you state that there is actual
science that is backing up why people are having
such a hard time.
Could you share this with us?
#00:18:31-0#
Dr. Barnard: It's a funny thing.
Back when the national institute of health gave
us the grant to test a vegan diet for diabetes,
as we're talking earlier, people do great, I mean
they lose weight, their diabetes improves and
everything.
But during that study I will never
forget, how some people would say 'I missed
cheese so much, I really missed the cheese' and
it was not ice cream, it wasn't milk, it was
specifically cheese.
And I thought: why is that?
So we started looking into it and we found 3
things.
The first thing we found is that cheese
is surprisingly fattening and we can maybe talk
about that.
The second thing is, it contributes
to a surprising range of health problems,
especially inflammatory conditions like asthma or
joint pain or skin conditions, also headaches.
But the third thing we found that it seems to be
- I am going to say 'habit-forming'.
You might
want to use the word 'addicting' and that
manifests by people really craving it, being
unable to imagine a world without cheese, it may
smell like old socks, but people feel they have
to have it.
We found out there are 3 reasons why.
One is, it's salty, people like salt - it's very
salty by the way, a lot of salt is used in the
cheese making process, even if the cheese doesn't
taste terribly salty, it's enough to keep us
coming back and it's more than enough to raise
your blood pressure.
The second thing is, it's
fatty and the fatty salty combination is why
people are drawn to quite a number of foods that
you can imagine.
The third thing though, is that
there are opiates in the cheese.
They're called
casomorphines.
Casein is the protein in milk and
casein breaks apart in your digestive process, to
release these casomorphine molecules.
They go the
brain and they attach to the same receptors that
morphine or heroin would attach to.
So that's why
we call them 'casein derived morphine like
compounds' or 'casomorphines'.
They're not as
strong as morphine at all, but even the strongest
casomorphine has about 1/10 the binding power to
the brain receptors compared to pure morphine.
So
it's not enough to make you mind numb the way
morphine would, but it seems to be more than
enough to make you craving and also more than
enough to get you constipated when you eat too
much of eat because that's an opiate, that's what
opiates do.
So if you know somebody, who says
they're kind of a cheese addict, now you know why.
#00:21:12-1#
" Niko: Ok that's pretty "
interesting.
Do you ever clue why there is
"casomorphine in breastmilk?
#00:21:17-5# "
Dr. Barnard: That's been a very curious question and
the answer to it is I believe exactly the one you
said.
Imagine if a calf did not want to nurse and
the calf goes wandering in the forest and comes
back a week later and he is not going to do very
well.
And imagine if a human baby turned away
from the breast, he wouldn't do well.
So I am
going to hypothesize that nature makes milk with
protein, fat, some sugar, a sprinkling of
hormones and a little bit of an opiate coded in
there, it goes to the babies' brain, and if you
look at a nursing baby, they nurse with great
intensity, and when they're done they collapse
into sleep and we think, isn't that beautiful?
The mother-infant bond is so sweet.
Well, I hate
to tell you just druged the child basically - I'm
kidding of course - but we do think that
casomorphines might be part of the
mother-infant-bond.
They help to calm the child.
They might also come to help the mother, because
there's evidence that a mothers own milk products
leak some casomorphines into her blood stream and
they go to her brain and make her focus on the
baby in the same way as the baby is focusing on
her.
And some amazing research from Scandinavia
looked at women, who had very large amounts of
casomorphines from their own breastmilk go into
the cerebrospinal fluid and reach the brain; it
was so intense that they develop postpartum
psychosis.
And this is a rare condition but it
happen.
And the hypotheses was, that this
condition of postpartum psychosis it's psychosis
after giving birth, that it's not caused by the
stress of giving birth, it's a toxic effect on
the brain and it may be this by-product of a
mothers breastmilk that has been shown to do
this, at least in some of the cases.
#00:23:22-7#
Niko: Alright, wow that's
interesting.
Could you share with us, besides of
being addictive, what are the potential harms of
consuming milk?
#00:23:30-5#
Dr. Barnard: There are several reasons why milk would be harmful.
It
has fat in it.
As I mentioned earlier supposedly
saturated fat is link to Alzheimer's disease.
But
it's also linked to heart disease.
If you want to
make your cholesterol go up, the best way to do
that is to consume an animal product, like dairy
products that have saturated fat, that increase
your bodies cholesterol level and they also have
cholesterol itself, which is in the cheese.
Now,
there is some fat and some cholesterol in milk
but it is highly concentrated in the cheese.
Now,
there is not just fat in cheese, it is also
protein and it is the proteins that trigger these
inflammatory conditions.
And we're seeing by the
way a fascinating phenomenon here in the US.
Americans love football and when I say football I
don't mean football like you would play, it's
football where you pass the ball and the guy who
is heavily patted, runs to the end zone.
Well, we
just recently had our super bowl, which is the
climax of the football season and the quarterback
who won the game, is named Tom Brady and he plays
with the Team called the New England patriots.
And if you asked him, 'which is your favorite
kind of cheese?' he would say 'Cheese, I don't
eat any cheese'.
Well why not?
Because it causes
the body to get inflamed and he is the most
winning football quarterback we have ever had and
he wants to make sure his career isn't cut short,
so he goes diary free.
And then we had another
very, very good quarterback named Aaron Rodgers,
who is with the Green Bay Packers.
Green Bay is
in Wisconsin, which is the biggest diary
producing state.
In fact they call the people
from Wisconsin 'cheese heads' and he is their
local sports hero, he is their star football
player.
But he announced some time ago that he
will not eat any cheese either.
Is he a traitor
to the state of Wisconsin?
I don't think so, I
think just the opposite.
He is a hero.
He says:
C'mon guys, let's get healthy', let's do retire
off all - he wasn't saying to retire all diary
farms, but that's the kind of the message.
But
you see this with a lot of sport stars and in the
past maybe 4, 5, 6 years it started with runners,
really the talented very long distance runners,
then it became tennis players like Venus Williams
and Serena Williams and Scott Jurek is a distance
runner, but the Williams sisters and then Novak
Djokovic went vegan, they all want to avoid the
inflammation and then it started beginning with
the football players and it started with the
football players who have to run a lot, they're
kind of all worried about inflammation.
So
forgive me this long-witted explanation.
But the
protein in the diary causes inflammation in the
body and you want to get rid of it.
Can I mention
just one other bad thing about diary?
'#00:26:23-9#
Niko: Sure sure we have time #00:26:25-6#
Dr. Barnard: Ok, well, we talked about the fat and
we talked about the protein but there is one
other thing.
Dairy cows are impregnated every
year, once a year, the farmer impregnates the cow
- not personally but he arranges to have it
done.
And so 9 month of every year the cow is
pregnant, after 9 month she gives birth and then
once a year she is always impregnated again.
So
most of the milk that people drink and most of
the cheese that is made from milk, came from a
pregnant cow.
Pregnant cow makes estrogen, the
estrogen gets into the blood, it goes then into
the milk and it's only traces, it is not a lot
but as the pregnancy goes along, it gets to be
more and more and more.
And researchers don't
know what to make of it.
But here is what we're
concerned about.
In Rochester, New York,
researchers went into a male fertility clinic and
the men who consumed the most cheese, had the
most problems with fertility, meaning their sperm
comes with low compared to the people who didn't
eat much cheese.
When we look at women, we
started to be concerned about possibilities of
breast cancer and other conditions.
So the bottom
line is, if you're thinking about what to feed
your 7-year old son, do you want to give him
female sexhormons?
Or frankly your 7 year old
daughter, do you want to be giving that to her?
My answer is 'No'.
And back in 1950s when we
didn't know much about this, it was
understandable that people would say 'Well,
that's a good source of calcium' - Oh forget it,
you can get calcium from the same place the cow
got it.
The cow gets it from green leafy
vegetables in grass in this case, I'm not
suggesting, you eat grass, but there is plenty of
green leafy vegetables that humans like, whether
it's broccoli or kale or collards or brussel
sprouts, you name them and they're loaded with
calcium and that's the healthy source.
#00:28:24-2#
Niko: Ok, if we could summarize
this.
If we keep the estrogens from milk in mind
for a person that is eager to build muscle mass,
for a body builder, is it a good idea to leave
out the milk for this person especially?
#00:28:36-0#
Dr. Barnard: Yeah, it's a good idea
for everybody.
Arnold Schwarzenegger years ago,
who is of course now America's most famous
bodybuilder, he said years ago 'milk is for
babies' and what he meant was mother's milk is
for babies.
There is never a reason for anybody
to consume the milk of another species and as you
know there are plenty of extremely talented - or
am I say frightening - bodybuilders like Patrick
Baboumian, they don't consume animal products at
all and they're so incredibly muscular.
You don't
need animal products, and you certainly don't
need milk.
#00:29:18-7#
Niko: So if we could come back a second time to the topic of
inflammation.
Do we already know what happens
inside the body if a person is digesting animal protein?
#00:29:29-3#
Dr. Barnard: I don't
think we know all of the links in the chain, but
what seems to happen is that your body will pull
the protein - let's say you swallow cheese, the
cheese goes through the stomach into the
intestinal tract and as it goes into the small
intestine the protein is separated out, and the
amino acids and small chains of amino acids also,
that we call peptides, pass into the blood
stream, that is recognized by the body as a
foreign protein, and your body tries to be
careful about allowing some proteins in and
reacting to others.
So for example let's say
you're allergic to a plant, your body recognizes
that plant and will make antibodies to it, so
your body recognizes the protein, white blood
cells make what are called antibodies, these are
proteins like little protein missiles or
torpedoes, they try to attack the protein but in
turn they attack your joints, or they attack your
skin or they attack some other part of the body
and that's called an autoimmune reaction and as
they attack, they start the inflammatory process,
which is swelling and pain and this is what - in
the joints that's rheumatoid arthritis and so a
number of our searchers have been using vegan
diets for rheumatoid arthritis, so a little bit
like Alzheimer's in the sense that you want to
get it really early.
Once a persons' joints are
destroyed.
You want to get it early.
#00:31:02-7#
Niko: Ok thank you very much for
this one.
Could we now come to a very
controversial topic, it is about saturated fat.
While most of the nutrition authorities say that
you should cut back on saturated fat, there is
the other party like those low carb and paleo
evangelists and people like Nina Teicholz who
said, that there is no connection between eating
fat and cholesterol on the one hand or that
saturated fat or even cholesterol is bad.
Could
you share with us your opinion on this topic?
#00:31:30-4#
Dr. Barnard: For anybody who has
been concerned that a headline about nutrition
one day is contradicted by a headline the next
day, let me say I feel your pain.
It's not that
science is changing, rather what we're seeing is,
that well-founded science showing for example
that saturated fat does raise cholesterol and it
increases your risk of heart diseases, that's
being contradicted by in some cases industry,
that is trying to make saturated fat look
healthier.
And they use a number of tricks for
doing this.
You can do research studies, where
for example you might compare beef to chicken.
And you say 'Gee, the person switching from beef
to chicken, their cholesterol did not really fall
very much, it was not statistically significant
so therefore the saturated fat in beef didn't
hurt them.'
Which is not really a good
comparison.
Another trick they will sometimes use
is, there is a good and legitimate technique
called meta-analysis, where you take every study
ever done on that subject and you put them all
together and try to get an answer, that's better
than one study alone and so it sounds good in
theory.
And we do meta-analysis here.
The problem
is, if you combine studies that are very
different, so let's say I combine studies in
vegans and vegetarians where they might have a
great variation in their saturated fat intake and
you could clearly see in this populations that a
high saturated fat intake is harmful to them,
particular for several heart disease, but then
you combine that study with a study from Sweden,
where there is nobody on a low-fat diet and
they're a very different populations, the results
cancel each other out.
A good statistician would
say 'Don't do that, that's not appropriate'.
But
you get somebody like Nina Teicholz or others,
people writing in the press, they don't
understand that, and they're quite happy to hear
that bacon must be good for you and for the late
reader it is really tough to sort that out.
But
the bottom line is, that science is not changing
a lot.
We know from epidemiological studies - I
mean studies where you observe people - that
people who are on, say vegan diets and planned
based diets, are the thinnest and healthiest and
the more animal products come in, dairy products,
fish, meat, the worst things yet, from the
standpoint of bodyweight, diabetes risk and
another risks.
So that hasn't changed but the
industry has actually been trying to find ways to
confuse people.
They do the same thing to
cholesterol.
In 2015 cholesterol was a big
controversy 'Oh I guess eating cholesterol isn't
going to hurt me anymore'.
The science hadn't
changed at all.
What happened was the egg
industry specifically went around doing and
funding studies to try to make cholesterol look
ok.
So that makes my job as a doctor harder
because people love good news about really bad habits.
#00:34:43-8#
Niko: Alrght, so with this in mind, could you
once again make clear for us the lipid hypothesis
that states that eating more saturated fat will
raise our level of cholesterol.
Is this still
up-to-date and sure, like Ancel Keys stated quite
a while ago?
#00:35:00-2#
Dr. Barnard: Ancel Keys and many others researchers showed many
years ago that the more saturated fat you consume
- think of meat fat especially diary fat - the
higher your cholesterol level will be and the
higher your risk of heart disease.
Now, there are
other factors that play parts here: smoking,
physical activity all these things effect the
mix.
So it's not a perfect relationship but in
the same way as a smoker may get lung cancer or
may not, but it's risky enough so that you don't
want to smoke.
That science has never been turned
around.
There are people who try to make money by
selling books saying that you can disprove this.
But when you really dig into the science of it,
which I guess it might be more than you are
willing to do right now, actually the original
research that was done back more than a half
century ago and frankly has been validated ever
since many times, it still holds up really quite well.
#00:36:00-4#
Niko: Alright, that makes
perfect sense.
So could we summarize it in a way
that the more saturated fat you eat, the higher
your cholesterol level gets?
#00:36:08-5#
Dr. Barnard: Yes you can say that.
I mean there is
no question about it.
I can make your cholesterol
go up tonight by feeding you butter and cheese
and things like that and the reverse happens too
and we see that on a daily basis.
People come in
to our medical center here and they had high
cholesterol levels and we put them on a low fat
vegan diet, a vegan diet means there is no animal
fat in your diet whatsoever, there is no
cholesterol and their cholesterol come down.
And
if anyone wants to imagine that that's not
possible, I invite them to come here and they can
do their own testing and if they will follow the
dietary advice that I will give them, in the vast
majority of cases they're going to be very, very
impressed.
Now, don't get me wrong, I am not
suggesting that some people might not need
medication, because they have some persistent
problems - that's all fine - nutrition is a part
of this - but there are other issues, too.
But to
say that nutrition doesn't matter or that
saturated fat doesn't matter or just eat butter
and eat meat and so forth, is to leave people,
first of all - they've been lied to, that's not
true.
Secondly, it conveys the idea that there
isn't anything that matters.
So where did your
heart disease come from?
Well it must have come
from eating white bread or soda or something like
that which is really not a tenable hypothesis.
#00:37:36-0#
Niko: So another very controversial
discussed topic is coconut oil.
We see that
coconut oil basically exists out of saturated
fatty acids but companies make people believe
that coconut oil is somehow healthy.
Is there any
difference between saturated animal based fat and
saturated plant based fat?
#00:37:55-1#
Dr. Barnard: No, coconut oil is very highly
saturated and it behaves just like animal fat.
So
I know that people who make it, would like you to
believe that it's somehow magically different.
It's not.
Most plant fats are much better, they
have very low saturated fat in them, but the
coconut is an exception.
And if you look at it,
it's a glob that looks just like lard and you're
better off not eating that at all as it is not special.
#00:38:26-2#
Niko: Dr. Barnard, for people
who are eager to change, do you have any
piece of advice how they can start?
#00:38:31-8#
Dr. Barnard: There is a lot of
advice that you will hear and some people are a
little bit daunted by it, where you think 'Oh my
goodness, everything I've been doing is wrong and
what should I do?'
Here is what I suggest:
Instead of having this be a negative experience,
we are going to turn it into fun.
And when people
come to our clinic, what we do is: We ask people
to take 7 days and during this week don't make
any change in your diet at all.
You can eat
whatever you want to but: experiment with some
new foods.
Try, say, a breakfast or lunch or
dinner that has no animal products and at first
you might wonder, what that would be.
But you
find once that you like it, and in my books I
have lots of ideas for you, and of course there
are many other great books.
So take a week, find
out what you like and then after you know what
foods you prefer, then take 21 days, that's 3
weeks, and do it all vegan all the time.
And keep
the fats pretty low and have healthy foods.
What
you discover after three weeks, 2 things will
happen.
The first is you're healthier, you're
losing weight, your cholesterol is coming down,
if you got diabetes it is getting better, your
joints feel better, your digestion is better,
your energy is better, but the second thing is,
your tastes are changing.
So you found some foods
you really like and that old cheeseburgers is not
calling your name so much, but if you only were
to do this once week, than all of the other days
you cut off reminding yourself of this unhealthy
taste.
So that's why I say do 21 days 100% vegan
because that allows you to do something that most
people never do, which is to really be on this as
close as possible to a healthy diet.
It's a life
changing experience for people.
So have fun with
it and when you see how cool it is, then make
some noise.
I mean, share this with other people
that you know, because you could save people from
a lot of misery by helping them to change their diet.
#00:40:43-0#
Niko: Ok.
Dr. Barnard, thank
you so much.
For people that are willing to make
a change, you also provide an online program that
can help them and support them in order to make
these important changes.
So can you share with
us, what is the program and where can we find it?
#00:40:51-1#
Dr. Barnard: It's called the 21 day
vegan kick start and you see it on our website
which is www.pcrm.org as an 'Physicians Committee
for Responsible Medicine'.
We have lots of other
materials there and I hope people will look at
them.
I also do have a few books in the German
language as you know, that I would love for
people to share around and I hope that libraries
will carry them.
My goal is to spread some
information and then some fun applications like
recipes and food ideas that people can use to put into work.
#00:41:27-1#
Niko: Alright, Dr.
Barnard, thank you so much for joining us for the
Plant-Based-Symposium.
As the final question,
what is the main take-home message, what is the
key message, that you want anyone out there to know?
#00:41:36-5#
Dr. Barnard: I think we
covered the things that are really important, I
hope that people will, perhaps more than anything
else, think of this: We make decisions for our
own health, but perhaps what is most important of
all, is the health of the next generation and we
can do that on great favor by raising them on a
healthy vegan diet.
A healthy vegan diet means
simply four groups: vegetables, fruits, whole
grains and legumes or beans.
Don't forget to take
vitamin B12, it really should be a supplement,
now that's another question about why a
supplement, but I do recommend that people do
that.
If you're never getting any sun, you might
need to take a Vitamin D supplement, too, but
that's about it.
It's a very very simple way to
go and it will change your life.
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