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Welcome to this weeks' episode of
The County Seat, I'm your host Chad
Booth. Today we are going to talk
about west desert issues and joining
us are the people that are closest to
the issues that happen out here. We
have Glenn Greenhalgh from
Planning Department in Juab County
and we Commissioner Dean Draper
from Millard County and we are going
to have a discussion about the issues
that really are driving survivability of
the west and that may sound
dramatic but really the survivability
of the communities of the west
desert are at stake. It is not unlike
the pioneers where you look at first
issues of land water access and
invasion and those are the four topics
So let's start the conversation with
land access Dean what is the biggest
problem with land out here?
Well 70% of Millard County is public
land and the BLM part of that it's
used for grazing and mining it's used
for recreation. Up until the current
administration there was a great
drive to keep the public off of public
lands to curtain grazing allotments to
make it so mining could not happen
that impacts the economies of our
counties it reduces our tax base and
it reduces the service that are
available to our people. As far as the
average person who came into
wester Utah they would be allowed
just like in Hawaii if you are out on a
sidewalk or a beach or asphalt you
can go there but you cannot go
anywhere else.
Okay, understood. What are some of
the specific problems that threaten
our status quo the administration has
hanged but there are things like the
test range that have an impact on
how we use public land and have a
big effect in both your counties.
That's correct. The Utah test and
training range is extremely important
to the free world. It's the only type
of its range in the United States. We
support and are grateful for that but
we are also need to understand it can
have a large impact of the residents
of that area of the state of Utah.
They are doing some expansion now
we are concerned about the
possibilities of road closures and
things we been working closely with
SITLA as well as the DOD and others
but it is a mixed blessing but we need
to maintain the access to the lands.
all, are their multiple roads that
actually cross like multiple uses on
the test range?
There are many uses across the test
range. This latest expansion would
allow some closures for that but they
have fly sorties if you will or have
pilots from around the free world
that come and test on this range. It's
one of the few places they can fly
what they call map of the earth and
do some of the training. Last time I
was with the air force out of hill air
force base the pilot that was
conducting the briefing had just
returned from some very successful
missions in Iraq and he said every
tactic I used in Iraq I learned right
here on this range.
Wow, so it is not that they are
dropping ordinances out there so
much as it is they are practicing
maneuvers.
They are testing new technology. The
formal border for this is the
Juab/Millard County line but it's like
tehSR21 Blackbird it takes 3 states to
turn one of those around these things
do not turn around at the border
they come across Millard County's
airspace. We have a project being
developed on the Sevier Lake dry bed
and the fly zones extend in a vector
out there you have places where you
cannot build 100 feet above ground
level others where it is 200 feet
above ground level that is also
Millard County's next primary place
for development. This mine that is
going in on the lakebed there would
have things that could possibly
exceed that so that their energy
could be used to process their
ultimate pot ash situation. What we
are looking for is to not inhibit
development in our counties with
that out in Juab County there are
roads that will be closed and the
people that live there will be told that
for 2 or 3 days they don't move.
If you live in Callao that is kind of a
problem, isn't it?
IT is.
Is there a general solution to this, it's
kind of different than the normal
BLM we are going to cut your grazing
allotment issue right?
It is but if you look at history and I
like to be an optimist not a pessimist
if you look at history what often
happens is what I call baby steps,
they get a little bit and then they get
a little bit more and then they get a
little bit more and you are never sure
where you are going to end up so you
got to be careful and watch as the ant
begins to eat the elephant one bit at
a time.
Understood we have just barely
touched on this issue sounds like we
will be coming back on an entire
series of shows. We are going to
move onto water on the County Seat
and talk about that that is an issue
that is very important to the counties
be back in just a minute.
Welcome back to The County Seat we
are talking today about issues of the
west desert which actually
encompass several counties out here
in the west. Our topic now is to look
at the issues of water of which is the
most important issue for survivability
of any of the communities out here.
We do want to talk about the water
issues behind us is surface water and
most people think if you need a
community to survive you just build
another reservoir you tap a little
more of a river and your problems
are solved. Is that not the case?
Absolutely not the case. Surface
water is but a small part of the whole
water scheme of things water system
and I believe that people really have
a misunderstanding when it comes to
water what water is and the
importance of it.
know that every now and then in the
news Snake Valley water comes up
and people go what does that have to
do with Delta what does that have to
do with Callao and western Juab
County because it's over in Nevada
aren't they on a different aquifer?
They are on a different aquifer than
we are right here but they are not on
a different aquifer from some of the
rest of the state of Utah. We have
studies that show that water actually
flows from Utah side of Snake Valley
even in towards Salt Lake and there
are a couple issues with that it's not
as much that the water guest to Salt
Lake some of it does head that way
but if we start reducing the water
pressure or water flow on our side
some of the bad water from around
some of the salt flats things like that
will begin to head this way it will
deteriorate the water situation in Salt
Lake County but it could also destroy
such things as fish springs which is
national wildlife refuge.
So Dean when you are talking about
hydrostatic pressure of ground water
basically I think I understand what
Glenn is saying you take water out of
a chunk the surrounding water is
going in to fill in the void.
That happens the mountain ranges in
western Utah run across Nevada all
have permeability at some point in
Nevada right now there was a
hearing 2 weeks ago about pumping
water out of the Spring valley that
aquifer there the LDS church put
together a study in 2017 if they were
to pump water in this Spring Valley7
according to that study water would
flow backwards from the Hamlin
Valley and the Snake Valley in Utah
back into the Spring Valley that would
have a draw that also brings water
down from Juab and Salt Lake County
because it would reverse the flow
depending on how much was taken
out.
So if they basically take water out of
an aquifer and pump it to Las Vegas
which I think they are trying to do
what happens to the water out here?
Is there proof that this is actually
happening?
They have models they do not have
proof yet they do have some history
though. On the Utah Nevada border
in the Snake Valley there is a large
spring called Big Springs. It provides
water that goes north to Esdaile and
Callao and Juab the water table there
has been dropping 6-8 inches each
year for the past five years.
You find that has been true in Juab
County as well.
That is true. We find that the existing
wells and ranchers' farmers in Juab
County in Snake Valley their water
levels have dropped and I do not
have exact measurements but they
have been dropping and I have
toured that country many times and
where they used to be large seeps if
you are lucky now there is a tiny
puddle.
One other question the argument
that says Las Vegas Salt Lake should
get this water is that there is ah
higher need there. Do you guys agree
with that model?
No I do not.
How do you justify that Glenn?
I have had some experience some of
it in the electric power industry there
was a group that I was involved with
had some big players like Provo some
small players like Manti and Nephi
and Levan and actually the power
superintendent in Provo taught us all
that a kilowatt is a kilowatt no matter
what. It is not about how many
people it's about the individual
people and those individual people
who have made their life and
livelihood carved out some very
rough country of a place they can live
and work they deserve as much
condition as much protection as any
other resident or citizen in the state
of Utah. And it is important that we
understand that. People think that
water is a small thing it's important
to understand a few points. One that
in order for humans to survive there
are 3 most important, if you exclude
air there are 3 most important items.
Number one is air and you can go a
few minutes without air. Number two
is water you can go a few days
without water. Number 3 is food you
can go weeks without food. People
need to understand how important it
is and people in Callao and Trout
Creek Garrison and Baker Nevada
they deserve just as much
consideration as somebody in a larger
valley. We need to stop inner basin
flows if we are going to protect the
lifestyle that is the American Dream.
I know we are running a little long on
time but one very quick statement
from you, Dean, what happens to the
land if they do withdraw the water?
Okay they are looking at doing
evapotranspiration capture that
mean that all of the plants and the
valleys that they would pump from
would die. It would leave an absolute
desert with no plant growth on top
other than what surface water might
encourage.
Would that basically create a dust
problem for some of the metro areas
that are sucking the water in?
Absolutely, you would have a
pollution with the dust that way an
inner basin transfer in any basins in
any states sets a precedent where a
large urban area could come after
rural water and leave everybody
sitting there with hey we are in
trouble.
That would be starving to death
eventually because a lot of food
comes out of this area.
That's right.
We have to take a break we will be
right back with The County Seat
talking about west desert issues and
we will pick up with getting access to
those when we return.
Welcome back to The County Seat we
are in the western part of Millard
County out in the great western
desert of Utah talking about issues
that are really important to rural
Utah particular people who live in
this dry climate out here. We have
covered the topic of land and water
but neither one of those amount for
much if you do not have access so
one of the other key problems is
access to roads and we continue our
conversation with Commissioner
Draper from Millard C county and
joining us now is Tony Rampton from
the Attorney General's office who is
the RS2477 Czar from Southern Utah.
Tony thank you for driving all the way
out here for this RS2477 road. Let's
just have a chat a bit about where we
are with RS2477.
Well where we are right now is there
are several different things that are
moving forward. As I have said many
times everyone recognizes that
litigating the 12,500 roads that the
state of Utah and the counties are
claiming won't happen.
It cannot happen.
Physically it is impossible so we have
to come up with an alternative
solution and an alternative process
for processing these road claims so
we have got 3 different groups
working on that the courts are
working on that the Congress of the
United States is working on that and
BLM is working on that so there are
things in the works it just takes so
much time that is the thing that is
frustrating to people is that it just
takes a lot of time and it will continue
to take a long time. It's a big project.
So a lot of people look at this and say
what difference this dirt road makes.
It may have been here 100 years ago
but who needs this road today?
Well this has been used for over 100
years this is a mining district this is a
grazing district and it allows access if
this road were to be closed you could
take a 20 mile detour and still never
get where you needed to be.
So who uses it today?
We have cattle producers that are
out here with different permits in this
area. They come out to check their
livestock over here to the west of us
is what is known as Smelter Knoll it's
a rhyolite formation rock founders
come out here commercial rock
salesmen come and they collect the
different formation they put them in
aquariums and fire places these
people use this road for access to
that. Down at the south end of
Smelter Knoll is a crate which in the
1940's they took a meteorite out of it
that is now in the Smithsonian. It is
still a favorite for people to come and
camp and enjoy life and this road
facilitates that.
Well why couldn't it just be a Title 5?
That limits access in such a way that
you cannot do anything with it.
If it stayed Title 5 who would decide
how the road was used or how it
continues?
The BLM. Title 5's cannot be
compared to an RS2477. A Title 5 is
essentially a permit issued by the
federal government. That permit is
subject to conditions. BLM can place
any kinds of conditions that they
want to.
Including revocation?
They are always revocable. You
cannot put together a Title 5 permit
that is not revocable. The law
disallows that so that is a conditional
permit that is revocable an RS2477 is
actually a conveyance of title to a
right of way that is permanent that
cannot be revoked. So you cannot
compare the two they are very
different animals.
Okay we have covered as much as we
can one last final question, how much
would it cost the county if you did not
have these roads out here?
Oh, it would be hundreds of
thousands if not millions of dollars
just in access. The grazing would go
away you could round them up on
horseback but permits have different
times on them it would be
catastrophic.
Indeed we have covered the issues of
roads not as well as we would like we
have spent several hours talking
about this over the years but it looks
like there is some progress as Tony
said and the counties are still really
engaged in the fight to make sure
that they maintain access. We are
going to take a break from the
County Seat when we come back
some problems that are facing the
west when we take a look at the
current status of wild horse and
burro and how much impact that
really has on people out here on the
range lands. Back in just a minute.
In 1990 when the BLM was still
gathering horses this spot looked like
this. In 2000 after they had
discontinued regular gathers of
excess horses the area looked like
this. What's the difference? The
foliage is gone the ground cover is
gone. This is the area today and what
you see here today is not only is the
ground cover gone but so is the soil.
Welcome back to The County Seat we
are talking about issues that are
impacting the west desert counties of
Juab, Millard, and Beaver and to
some degree Iron and Tooele county.
Joining us for this segment is Mark
Winch who is a cattle rancher out
here in the west desert in Beaver
County and Mark thank you for
joining us.
Thank you Chad, I appreciate it.
You run probably one of the bigger
cattle operations out here and this is
part of your allotment area is that
correct?
Yes this is one of our summer
pastures.
So I want to talk to you about the
issue of what is happening to the land
out here because this entire wild
horse and burro issue that keeps
capturing the headlines and keeps
causing the protests and keeps
affecting BLM and Congress and what
they do is this about the horses or is
it about the ground.
This really is not about the horses.
This has to be a rangeland health
issue. Over the years we have seen
horse numbers well above 300 head
in this area. Its suppose to have zero
and as a rancher the destruction of
the resource is my main concern I like
to see a few horses it has always
been a fun and entertaining thing but
when you come out here and you see
horses and horses in large numbers
destroying the resource like you can
see here and losing the grass and the
foliage and being left with rock is
destruction.
In this case even the top soil. Let me
ask you a question I know people at
home are thinking about this, when
was the last time you had cows on
this land?
Last time I had cows on this land was
about 3 years ago. But I am
supposed to be able to run 330 head
here and all I turned out was 50 head
so significant numbers it's been a
decade.
So since you ran it like it is. So who
ate that grass that is still here?
Well what little bit of grass that is
here you can see right here what is
left with this plant that has been a
horse that has come along and
cropped that and is pretty well
destroyed.
Could a cow actually crop grass that
close?
No a cow cannot crop grass that close
a cows purely has bottom teeth it
wraps the grass and it pulls up and
cuts the grass but a horse has top and
bottom teeth and they can get right
down to the dirt.
Okay so we obviously see that this
damage is caused by horses but the
thing that most concerns me and I
am most alarmed at in looking at this
is that picture from 2000 while the
ground cover was gone you still had
top soil and this is obviously different
do you think you can rehabilitate
this?
It's possible maybe but it will take a
lot of effort and money.
How do you get grass to grow on
rocks?
It's going to be hard and it may not
ever come back and that's the real
scary part is here on these ranges we
are getting about six and half inches
of water annually and so the grass is
here does need to be managed and
taken care of and with cattle we are
able to do that we are able to put
them in for a certain period of time
and then pull those cattle out which
helps plants and helps them grow but
with horses they are here all the
time.
One quick question how about the
horses. Does the ranching
community want them off the land?
No what we would simply like is
horses to be held at the scientific
level a number that is going to be
manageable and healthy for them
and the range I have seen starving
horses I have seen dying horses and I
have seen dead horses and its tragic
and if you call that a humane source
of compassion to let these animals
die and starve on the range that is
absolutely cruel.
Mark thanks for your time,
Thank you, Chad.
Thanks for staying with us on The
County Seat so much more to find
out about so if you go to our website
or YouTube channel or our FB page
you can find more in depth
interviews with the people we had on
the show so we thank you for joining
us today and remember local
government is where your life
happens and sometimes where your
food comes from please be engaged
and part of the solution we will see
you next week on The County Seat.
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