- [Louise] Me again, Louise Hvala,
showing you the truth about the legal profession
and the amazing people that work in it.
This week we're diving deeper into the topics
about cultural and gender diversity,
the expression "bamboo ceiling,"
the benefits of being a lawyer with Indian heritage,
plus more.
And who else to better shed a light on these topics
other than Molina, Principal Solicitor
at the Victorian Government Solicitor's Office,
but you might know it as the VGSO.
So I want to start off with
what got you into the legal profession,
what made you want to become a lawyer?
- So I'm originally from India
and my whole family is in the profession.
My grandfather was a judge,
my father's a lawyer, my mum is as well,
and lots of people in the family work in
and are doing pretty well in the profession.
I guess I just grew up with that,
dinner table talks about the profession,
arguments over the table.
I didn't quite actually want to be a lawyer.
I think that when I was at Uni
I was doing a Commerce degree, thinking about management,
and about half way through I just got convinced,
no, this isn't the right profession,
I really want to do law
and yeah, I did my law degree after that
and started in the profession.
- Was there any expectation from your family
that you would be a lawyer?
- I don't think there was an expectation,
there might have been but they never asked me to.
But I suppose it's not the conscious mind,
it's not like telling you you have to do this,
it's like subconsciously filtering it in.
So you end up taking that path.
I was always told it's a really good profession for women,
you have the flexibility and it's so prestigious
and things like that, so yeah, maybe.
- And how long did you practise in India,
because you practised law in India,
how long did you practise there?
- Seven years. - Seven years.
And what year did you migrate to Australia?
- 2004.
- How did you find the transition from India to Australia?
- In terms of personally, it is a different country
but I've travelled quite a bit
and I think Australians are quite open minded.
It was quite good, my husband was born here
so I think it was easier for me.
He had his family so that transition wasn't too bad.
But I think professionally it does get a bit hard
because you have to get accredited
to be able to practise here again,
and when I came here I thought I'd take a break
because I was starting a new life.
I came here because I got married
so I took a year and a half and did my Masters of Law
which I always wanted to do and I never got the time.
So I did that at Melbourne Uni
and then I thought, well, yeah,
I'll just try and find a job.
And that's when it started getting a little bit harder
because even though my Masters degree was there
and I had good grades,
I had to do the six months of training
and four subjects to get accredited.
And I started applying and talking to recruiters
and I was told that my degree
is really not going to be, an Indian qualification
and experience, won't be of much use.
Masters is good, but yeah, I was also told
"you should probably think about another profession,
"you'll never get a job in a good law firm,
"you might have to try small or boutique firms
"or you may have to change your profession."
- [Louise] Really?
- Yes, so it was quite discouraging
but I was and I had always been a lawyer,
and I wanted to be a lawyer so I wouldn't give up,
I'd keep trying and pushing for it.
So that transition was a little bit harder but I got there.
And pretty quickly after that
the step ups were pretty quick as well,
because I had just started as a trainee with Clayton Utz
then moved to Minters as an associate,
and then, obviously, with the Government
I've been a Principal Solicitor
with the Victorian Government.
Been there for 10 1/2 years.
So I think the progression was quick
but getting in was hard.
- How did you get in, what did you do?
Because I think you've told me this story before.
(laughs)
- I was trying, I was trying.
I was talking to recruiters like yourself.
And I tell this story always
because one of the recruiters said,
well, we can't really put your CV forward to big firms,
it's difficult.
But I was using my contacts as well, the people I met,
and trying to get interviews separately with partners,
not going through recruiters
or going through the formal channels.
And I was just having chats with them
about what I've done and what my experience is
and what I can bring to the table,
and I think that's what works better for me.
I got my first job at Clayton Utz which was Trainee,
and then I moved to Minters and at that point,
that recruiter who told me I couldn't get a job
he called me up and he said,
Oh, there's a position at Phillips Fox,
I think it was called then,
and so I can put your name forward.
No, I said, I've already got a job, I'm in Minters,
and he nearly died.
He said, "How did you get that?"
So yes, I did, I guess after that
once you get an in somewhere in a big firm
I think it's easier, but as I said
you have to keep pushing
and you have to try other channels
if the formal channels are not working.
- Because you do quite a lot of networking.
Have you always done a lot of networking?
- Not so much when I came here
because you don't know that many people.
I think my networking only started
maybe five years ago or something
when my interest diversified in community work as well,
so I think the networking happens more
when you're out there doing that work
and talking at forums and meeting different people,
so yes, I enjoy networking though.
- Because I always see you around
and I think that's how we've met.
- Yes, at the events, I think at LIV as well?
- Yes, the LIV ones.
And in terms of progressing,
obviously from making the progression
up to your current position, how was that,
how did you progress to each level?
- To each level?
I think it's just you've got to-
So with Trainee, obviously they soon realised
I had the experience from before, I wasn't at that level,
so I guess the next position obviously was Associate
and you sort of work there.
But my move from private firm to government
was probably more because of
the work life balance and things,
and it's just brutally competitive in big law firms
and that's not the environment I really wanted to be in
in the long term and so I moved because of that,
but obviously it was a better position
and I suppose I had the experience already to do that.
In my previous background
and then the experience that I gained here as well
gained me the role
at the Victorian Government Solicitor's Office.
That's sort of the progression that I've had,
it hasn't been very dramatic though.
- Did you find it, at any point, difficult
transitioning from private practise to Government
or was it easier than you expected?
- No, it was all good,
because I'm in commercial practise anyways, commercial law.
So that's pretty much similar.
You're doing contracts, tenders, procurement,
that's quite similar
whether you're working for the private sector
or for the government.
With the government as well I work on major projects,
so on the other side would be the firms
that I've worked with before,
so you're pretty much doing the same work
but just being on the other side.
We have to actually look at a lot more things
than someone from private practise would look at
because you've got to look at government policies
and you know, there are so many guidelines,
and then you have the state and committees,
the project groups and everything,
so you're constantly interacting.
There's a lot more stakeholders as well.
So I feel like the job is harder, even for government, but-
- [Louise] More politics?
- Yeah, and the government changes and things,
but it's not as simple as two private contracting parties.
But I didn't find the transition very hard, no.
- Now, I know you also do a lot of work
with culture and gender diversity
in different areas across different industries.
Tell me some of the issues you face
and what you're doing to overcome these issues,
whether that be in the profession
or the other areas you're focusing on.
- So with the profession I guess it's pretty evident,
and you being a recruiter as well will see,
that there's not that many people of diverse backgrounds
in the judiciary or at higher positions
in the legal profession, as partners,
senior partners of big law firms.
And that seems to be a really big issue
because if we look at our demographic
we've got a lot of Asians,
all people of different backgrounds who are studying law,
and if you look at a lot of people on the streets
it's just the streets are not reflected
in different professions.
So as I said, with lawyers it's not reflective
in the upper echelons of the professions.
Similarly for media or politics, sports, all these areas,
you will see that the diversity
that you see in the general population
is not reflected in the actual profession.
So I've been doing that work
in those various sectors as well.
I've been involved with
the Asian Australian Lawyers Association
right from the start of that organisation
and we are working for
greater diversity of Asians in mainstream law,
in the higher echelons of the legal profession,
advocating for having more judges from Asian backgrounds
or senior partners, just seeing more diversity
in the profession and generally.
But also I'm a convener for an organisation
called the Asian Australian Alliance
and that's for diversity in all areas as well,
politics and media.
And you see in politics as well,
there's not that many people of Asian background
who are in the Parliament, whether local, State or Federal.
So that's one area,
and recently I've started an organisation
called Multicultural Women in Sport,
and that's to get women of diverse backgrounds
enrolled in sport as a means of empowerment,
their wellbeing and sense of belonging,
because again that diversity is missing in sport.
And that becomes really important
for a country like Australia
where we're such a sporting nation,
and sports is such a good leveller
and something that can bring people together,
so you want to see more diversity in sports as well
and that's my passion now.
- Yes, because you are quite passionate about it.
In terms of why isn't, in the legal profession
and even in sport, why isn't it reflective of our culture?
- It may be there's an unconscious bias.
We call it the bamboo ceiling.
So the bamboo ceiling is when you can't go up higher,
the bamboo reaches a certain point
and you can't go up much higher,
and that's mainly because of the unconscious bias
we face every day.
It may not be overt,
it may not be people on the street sometimes saying
"Go back where you come from,"
but it can be unconscious as well
in terms of prejudices that we have,
or you know, just preconceived notions
about certain cultures or people.
So it's like, you may have heard,
in the Western culture "the loudest person gets heard,"
whereas in the Asian culture "the loudest duck gets shot."
So you'll always see Asians more sort of subdued
and they defer to authority,
they will not raise their voices.
Which can be considered as a negative
when you're in this environment
where you want to be heard and seen and really be out there.
So those are some of, I mean I guess people
are always looking for something that's similar to them,
so that's one of the reasons
why you won't see that much diversity in places
because you always see through people like you
or you maybe even as you go higher,
as they say with the glass ceiling, it's a boys' club,
whereas with the cultural ceiling it's similar,
where you have people of similar backgrounds.
We call it "male, pale, stale" sometimes.
It's the white male people on boards or in senior positions
and you don't see people of diverse backgrounds there at all
or women, so yeah, these are some of the issues
that we see all the time.
- How have you pushed through this,
the term "bamboo ceiling," because you're quite senior
and you're on a number of boards and things like that.
How have you pushed through that?
- I think you've just got to be confident,
you've got to be keep pushing as you say,
you just have to push so you just have to do that,
it's the year of Press for Progress,
you've got to press, so you can't stop.
You've got to be, one thing I've always found useful,
is having pride in your own culture and your background.
And that's what others will value as well,
because if you don't value your own culture or yourself,
others are not likely to do that either.
So the more you sort of highlight the positives
that you bring from your culture
as well as imbibe things from the culture
that you've adopted or the country that you've come into,
I think that that always helps, in having that combination.
And always being confident about it.
I think all of us have our strengths
and it's always about pushing forward your strengths
and your cultural strengths as well.
I mean, I come from a place like India.
India's the second largest growing economy in the world
at the moment so that's an advantage for me.
I can be the connector for people.
Obviously Australia wants to grow trade,
the Premier was there recently,
they want to grow trade with India.
So we come from backgrounds where it's really useful
at the moment to be from those backgrounds
to understand the cultures, to know the language.
We can be the bridge between countries,
so I think we're well placed to do that.
If you keep pushing that agenda,
people will understand that we can bring value as well.
- Is there any other advantages
of having that diverse background and being from India?
What have you found to be some of the other advantages?
- Well, as I said,
India's the second largest growing economy
and I've been doing a lot of work in bridging,
creating bonds between the two countries
in the legal profession and sport
and various other areas as well.
But this day and age understanding two different languages,
bilingual is good as well, or multilingual.
And also because we've got
a huge Indian diaspora in Australia now.
Victoria's I think the largest
and then you have New South Wales,
which has a pretty big Indian diaspora as well.
I think having that background
and being in a position where I'm connected to both,
being now at a higher level in the profession
and also being well connected with the Indian community,
I can tap into the resources
of the Indian community as well.
I'm sure they have a lot to offer
and the businesses from the Indian community
are growing as well, and that means
that we want to connect with them
so that's probably an advantage, I suppose.
- We meet so many lawyers
that sometimes think they're at a disadvantage
because of their cultural heritage,
but it's good getting an opinion,
hearing from you because you've obviously pushed past.
You've got the double ceiling, so glass and bamboo.
- Double glazed, as we say.
- What is it called?
- So a lady I know, she's amazing, the CEO of Harcourts,
she says it's "double glazed"
for women of diverse backgrounds.
The glass ceiling is double glazed.
- Have you ever believed it though?
I feel like you've just gone, yeah, whatever,
I'm just going to put that to one side and keep going.
- I suppose I do see it because people do see
that it exists, and I think I saw it in the beginning
when I joined the profession.
But I guess you've got to believe in your capabilities
and keep moving, and sort of think, well,
maybe it does exist but I'm just going to ignore it
and I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing
and doing it well.
- That's a good point of view you have and outlook.
And you've established an organisation,
you mentioned it before.
- The Multicultural Women in Sport, yes?
- Tell me more about this.
- So yes, it is to get women of diverse backgrounds
a bit more involved in sports
as a means of their empowerment and their wellbeing
and a sense of belonging in a country like Australia.
So I've been doing a lot of work
with all the big sporting codes like cricket, AFL.
I'm a commissioner with the AFL as well, by the way!
And soccer and table tennis and a few others,
advising them on their multicultural strategy,
on how to engage with women of diverse backgrounds
and getting more people, women of diverse backgrounds
into their programmes and also helping them
modify some of their programmes
to suit women of these backgrounds.
And at the other level, at the grass root level,
I've been advocating for clubs
to be more safe and inclusive for women.
Like creating separate spaces for women,
when they're not comfortable playing
where there's a lot of men around,
or wearing a hijab and being able to play,
having only women facilitators, umpires and coordinators,
so those kind of little things, all having diversity.
Diversity Week is on at the moment,
so having something around that time.
Changing just the food culture in the club,
so just not having sausage rolls or party pies,
because there's a lot of migrants who don't eat that.
Some don't eat beef and some don't eat pork.
- [Louise] I don't even eat it!
(laughs)
- Yeah, or some may be vegetarians,
so you have to be able to provide
more welcoming environments
for people of diverse backgrounds.
There's a lot of advocacy work
that I do with them and the councils as well,
local councils and their sporting officers,
and talk to them and talk at various forums
about how they can be more safe and inclusive for women.
- Have you seen any area
or any industry or profession doing it very well,
or any other country doing cultural diversity well?
- The US started before us,
so I think the cultural diversity there,
that issue has been addressed much better in the US
because they always think of colour first
and then the glass ceiling and then other things,
whereas we've started I suppose with the glass ceiling a lot
and the talk is still around that,
whereas our demographic has changed
and we are not really addressing
the issues of cultural ceilings.
So I think the US in that sense has done it well,
although recently I wouldn't say that is the case
with the change in presidency.
But I think in terms of what profession,
sports is doing it better now.
Like AFLs been doing it quite well,
they've got the AFL Women
and they've got a good multicultural programme
which I've been involved with for years,
and so I've been assisting a lot of clubs
with their diversity course
so they're all very keen on engaging
with the multicultural communities,
and not just at the level of getting more fans and things
but also at the level of actually
looking at issues that really matter
for people of diverse background, like refugees.
They want to go and talk at schools,
perhaps help them through sporting programmes
to actually get into it,
find jobs or apprenticeships and things like that.
So I think sports, some sports, have been doing it well too.
And for others I feel like just general professions
like software engineering, IT and things,
they've just got people from diverse backgrounds
because a lot of people do those degrees.
So I don't think it's happened
as a matter of policy or things,
it's just happened because it's happened.
- How long do you think the profession will take
before it changes?
- Well, it will still take time,
I think it's going to take time.
I know you are aware of that LIV issue,
that LIV Journal, which had a three page pullout
with all the women leaders in the legal profession,
so that's a positive.
So you can see now
there's a lot of women leaders in the legal profession.
But still there was no women of colour on that,
so that was missing.
But I am hoping that it won't take that
as long as it took for that many women to be on the cover,
for another cover
where there's all women or people of diverse backgrounds.
So hopefully it'll happen fast
now there's a lot of push for it as well,
and I think people are understanding the value of diversity.
The Diversity Council of Australia's doing great work.
There's a lot of organisations
that now have the D&I committees within their organisations
talking about these issues much more than before.
It may be that that's the start,
but I think it will happen faster now, hopefully.
- And in terms of service providers to the profession,
so including recruitment agencies like ourselves,
what should we be doing to promote
more cultural diversity and gender diversity
and interest in these issues?
What should we be doing?
- I think it starts at the education as well,
so you may be going to universities
and talking to students at times.
I think talking to them about what value they can bring
and understanding from them what their strengths are as well
and then pushing with firms,
that these are the different skill sets that we have
from within our sort of fold,
and these are the new students that are coming.
Or we have people of diverse backgrounds
that are now entering the profession,
and they bring these and these and these skills.
So I think you have to push the agenda a little bit
because when I started, I am talking 14 years ago,
I was told by a recruiter that I don't have a chance,
and that's very discouraging to hear
because then I'm not sure.
If a recruiter's telling me that, what chance do I stand?
I guess it's sort of a responsibility in some senses as well
to try and push that agenda
and educate, maybe, the companies that you are representing,
that there is this cohort that is amazing
and that they bring these values as well
to the organisation that they would be going to.
- It's interesting, and it's interesting to see
where we sit, to see it all unfold.
- I think it's something that everyone is responsible for.
Recruiters, of course, but the education system themselves,
they've got to teach the kids that they're valuable as well.
There's now a lot of law student societies
that are now organising seminars and things on diversity
and I was a speaker at one of them,
so I know that students as well within their own groups
are trying to push that agenda
and it would be great
if it was done at the university level.
And there have been conferences recently
organised even by Deakin and others to push that.
And there again, the profession has to embrace that,
and the judiciary again.
So it's at all levels, it has to happen from all angles,
everyone has to chip in where they can.
- And I know you're on a number of boards,
a number of committees and things like that.
How do you balance everything, work, family, friends?
- As I told you before,
I'm not sure I'm balancing it but I'm just doing it.
But I feel the more you take on,
the more you're able to achieve,
the more you're able to fit that in
because you just don't have an option.
You've got to just do it.
If someone told me I've got to speak here
at this particular time, I know I have to act committed
and I'm going to do it.
I have to write this article
and give it on this particular date,
I just have to do it.
And this meeting, I have to go to, I just have to do it.
I guess it's your passion,
so when something's your passion
you don't feel like you're trying to balance everything,
you're just sort of doing it.
Of course, work is work,
but the other things that I do outside of work
I'm really passionate about so I don't feel like it's work.
So I feel that balance is there.
Of course there's the family dynamic,
we've got a daughter who's nine
so sometimes that takes me away from her
which I'm trying to work on.
But she's growing up now so I can take her
to some of the things that she's interested in,
and she's really big on sports as well,
so a lot of the sports stuff that I do
I take her along with me.
And my husband as well, he's very keen on sports.
So I guess you've got to find those balances in your own way
and in the way that you're passionate about things as well.
It won't be the same for everyone,
it'll be different on what your interest is
and where your interests lie as well.
- That makes sense, and it's good
that you can now bring your daughter to different events.
Does she like coming?
- Oh, yes, she does.
Not for speeches, "boring speeches" as she calls it.
(laughs)
- What's "boring?"
- Everything I suppose at the moment
that doesn't involve maybe something to do
with interesting stuff for kids,
but sports is good, she likes to go for sport,
for games and things like that.
Or if it's her favourite, Darcy Vescio, speaking somewhere
then she doesn't mind their speech as well.
- So it might change later on.
- Yeah, it might.
(laughs)
- And in terms of lawyers that are watching
that look up to you and think, you know, Molina's done it,
she's pushed through those ceilings,
that glass ceiling and the bamboo ceiling.
What words of wisdom would you give
to help them if they're having self doubts?
- And that's what I said, it's about the confidence.
It's about having the belief
and always striving towards excellence
because if you strive towards excellence
people won't be able to fault you on anything.
Because we have to constantly compete
with people from mainstream,
so people with diverse backgrounds have to compete.
So if there's two people of the same level
and one is of the mainstream
and the other's from a culturally diverse background,
there's chances that the person who's from mainstream
will be picked up.
So you've got to push constantly,
have that extra edge, so excellence will be the edge,
and confidence will be the edge,
and the positives that you bring with diversity
will be your edge.
So I always keep saying
imbibe the good values from the other culture
but also highlight the good things from your own culture,
and I think that always takes you higher.
- [Louise] There you have it.
This is the end of this episode of Gatehouse Insight.
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and if you haven't already done so,
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