Shabir Ali: You see Peggy actually this idea was originated by Paul I mean he said the
wages of sin is death he made the cross the center of his theology and that's why he put
so much on it that's why he said if Christ is not raised then that you're still in your
sins to him God had to come and die for your sins but it makes no sense cause if God wants
to forgive us just like Jesus (AS) taught about the parable of the prodigal son in Luke chapter
15 the Son comes back to his father the Father welcomes him with open arms and has a celebration
no body has to die for somebody to be forgiven because if somebody dies then there is no
forgiveness you know that means I just took my full price I'm a cruel judge I just exact
the full punishment somebody goes and dies and then I'm happy but if God was loving and
kind He should be loving and kind to His son as well and save his son by some other means
and Jay said the son was willing but notice that's the representation in the last of the
four Gospels but Mathew, Mark, and Luke show that the Son was although willing he was submitting
but not offering himself, in the Gospel according to John the story is actually revised so that
Jesus (AS) offers himself because that just looks better but even if the son offers himself
it doesn't really solve the problem because if the Son loves the people so much that he
wants to die for them doesn't the Father love the people more than the Son loves or equal
to?
Why doesn't the Father come Himself?
You know I don't shove my son in the path of a moving car to go and save somebody I
go myself and protect my son, so the whole thing makes no sense.
Preggy: Now Shabir let me...
Jay Smith: Can I just say something on that?
Preggy: Yeah.
Jay Smith: I think it's very simple why He didn't come down himself He did come himself
and that's one of the mysteries of the Trinity but you ought to ask us: why is it that Jesus
Christ (AS) had to come?
The reason why is because you say somebody cannot take on someone else's sin, it depends
on who is sinned against.
See any time I sin every time I sin even if I take that pen from you or I take that watch
from you and I give it back to you and I ask forgiveness from you has that not impeached
upon God yes every sin impeaches upon God even eating of a simple fruit infringes upon
God therefore he who was sinned against it is he who took that on that sin--who took
on the punishment of that sin, there is the enormity of what we see in the Cross there
is the enormity of what we see by Jesus Christ (AS) coming down as the God head and taking on
the sin though he was the one who was sinned against.
Now that Islam does--
Shabir Ali: It doesn't make sense because what you're saying is that if you sin against
me I cannot forgive you until I punish myself, it doesn't make any sense If I wanted to forgive
you I just simply forgive you.
Jay Smith: What you're failing to understand is that every sin that we do not only has
a horizontal consequence it also has a vertical consequence--
Shabir Ali: No--
Jay Smith: Muslims don't understand that because they don't understand the relationship that
is there between God and man.
Shabir Ali: When you think God came down himself and died then he died on the Cross then God
died it's just getting worse every time you go.
Jay Smith: He certainly did, oh I don't have a problem with that.
Preggy: Okay--
Shabir Ali: If you said the Son died then at least you have the Father to look after
the world--
Jay Smith: But we have no problem it was God who died on the cross, why do you have a problem
with that?
Shabir Ali: Because if God died that's blasphemy then who would run
the world?
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