On this episode of China Uncensored,
the Communist Party is not gonna like this interview
Hi, welcome to China Uncensored,
I'm your host Chris Chappell.
I'm here in Australia,
the country/continent is reeling from the revelation
that the Chinese Communist Party has been influencing Australian politics
But I sat down with New South Wales Member of Parliament for the Greens Party
David Shoebridge -
a politician who's not afraid to talk about Beijing's most sensitive issues.
Thank you for joining me today.
Are we doing this interview outside
because Green members don't believe in indoor offices?
Oh well, we have an office
but I always think it's nice to get out in a park.
And Sydney thankfully, is blessed with some beautiful parks.
Definitely, why don't you tell us a little bit about the Greens
like just what you're about.
We're a party that's got four basic pillars behind it
which is ecological sustainability,
social justice, grassroots democracy and peace and non-violence.
How was the Chinese Communist Party infiltrating Australian politics?
I think the biggest impact of the Chinese government
and the concern about the regime in Australian politics
is the insidious self-censorship that we see from Australian politicians,
scared to call out obvious human rights abuses in China,
scared to support democracy movements in places like Hong Kong,
scared to really openly challenge China on some of those,
you know, appalling foreign relations decisions
such as the ongoing occupation of Tibet.
And it's that self-censorship
that I think is so so deeply frustrating.
And it's all because they fear a backlash from China,
a backlash on trade
or a backlash on our economic relationship.
Australia has one of the largest and deepest economic relationships with anyone is with China.
We have a massive trade relationship with China
But China buys out our coal and our steel and our iron ore
and our agricultural exports
and you know our education services.
Not because they think we're a bunch of nice guys,
not because we're friends and we all sit around have a cup of tea together.
Not because they can come over and tickle our bellies
and we'll do what they want.
They buy our stuff
because it's some of the highest quality and best price products
and services anywhere in the world.
And they'll continue to do that,
whether or not we call China out for its systemic human rights abuses or not.
And I can't understand
why otherwise intelligent people in positions of power don't get that.
And what can Australian politicians do to resist this influence?
They could show a bit of courage,
they could grow a backbone.
And they could just stand up for human rights abuses
wherever they're happening on the planet
that would be a good start.
I think that's asking for a miracle.
Oh well, you know I don't think it's a miracle
I think it should be the basic minimum standard
that citizens across the world to ask of their politicians.
For years, you've talked about one of the parties most sensitive issues -
the organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience.
How are you still in office?
Yeah well, I've definitely had, I've had direct attacks
from the Chinese consulate,
when I raise things in our state Parliament.
And I find that
remarkable, I mean, I haven't had those direct attacks from any other government
even though I may raise sensitive issues about US foreign policy
I may raise very sensitive issues about Australia's foreign policy
and its engagement with other regimes.
It was when I raised the concerns
about the way China goes about possibly organ harvesting .
That's the only time
that I've had that direct pushback
and in fact a letter came from the consulate
to basically every MP in the state Parliament.
Can you give us a specific example of some of that influence ?
Well, I was I have a private member's bill
that would prevent Australians or anybody ordinarily resident here
from going overseas and engaging in unethical organ harvesting.
And of course I view on it ethical organ harvesting
as a deep moral issue.
Just for clarity what do you mean by unethical trade in organs?
Any trade that was for commercial reason
any trade where there was a degree of exploitation.
And of course any trade where there was a lack of consent
and you know I'd put top of that list
what we see in China where we know
there are organs being provided through their massive transplantation system.
There are organs being provided almost certainly from prisoners of conscience.
And almost certainly without consent.
Putting in one side the fact that China has admitted
that they use the organs of executed prisoners.
So if any Australian was to leave Australia
and engage in one of those trades in China or Egypt or wherever,
that would be a very serious crime on the statute books here if they returned.
They would be found ordinarily prosecuted for an offense equivalent of manslaughter.
What was the Communist Party's response to that legislation?
Well, the consulate was less than chuffed.
It may surprise you?
We had a briefing that we put on in the New South Wales Parliament.
And when I was walking in the corridors of the Parliament
I had a number of colleagues from different parties
saying that they supported it.
And you know giving me their personal support,
so we put a briefing on
we had some human rights experts
and some medical experts come into a briefing about the bill
and why we were present in the bill.
Meanwhile, we had a huge petition presented
so there was strong public support for it
we had more that a quarter of a million people
sign a petition and support the bill.
So there was there was a political support for it in the populace, individual MPs from different parties
People generally don't like the idea
of innocent people being killed for their organs.
It's not a hard sell.
I mean, if you explain to people what the problem is,
they clearly want us to do something about it,
they expect their state federal MP to do something about it.
So we put the briefing on.
But the morning of the briefing,
a letter was sent from the Chinese consulate to each MP
in the state parliament,
basically saying: "The briefing is a dangerous attack on China
that my office had worked dangerously with this
had worked with this dangerous grouping called Falun Gong
that this was a direct attack on China.
And these kind of behavior in Australian Parliament
prejudiced the ongoing commercial relationship with China.
You know, an extraordinary intervention.
And how successful was that letter?
It was bloody successful, we didn't get a single MP from either of the larger parties
that the Labour Party or the Coalition.
They all backed out.
They'll back down even though we'd had a series of RSVPs.
So the head of China's organ transplant system Dr. Huang Jie Fu,
has said they've stopped using organs from executed prisoners.
I plainly don't believe those statements,
that come largely from the central Beijing bureaucracy
that say they're no longer using executed prisoners,
they're relying only on donors.
Because when you when you look at
the numbers in that most recent Matas and Kilgour's study .
The size of the transplant industry in China is massive
and their pool of donated organs
given that there's no history of donation
and there are cultural barriers to it in China,
their pool of organs is tiny
and something has to explain the shortfall
between the tiny number of organs that would come through
you know transplants donation system
and the massive scale of their increasingly commercial transplant industry.
And you know clearly that on any view
that's been serviced by amongst other things executed prisoners.
And for the Chinese to be in denial about it
they can say what they like.
But the numbers just don't stack up.
Yeah, I believe that report you mentioned "Bloody Harvest"
puts the number at about sixty to a hundred thousand organ transplants a year.
Yes, with a donation system that's providing at best ten percent of that.
So where's the shortfall coming from?
Well, if Huang Jie Fu can come out explain where the shortfall comes from
I would believe him when he says that it's not coming from executed prisoners
and of course Huang Jie Fu has a history with Australia
and it's one of the reasons why
I think we have an obligation to challenge him on this,
he's been given an honorary Doctorate from our oldest and most prestigious University
the University of Sydney.
It's actually where I graduate.
Well, I was gonna ask you've done some digging into
Dr. Huang's relationship with University of Sydney.
Can you tell us a bit about that?
Well, Huang Jie Fu has been important
from the eyes of University of Sydney
by establishing links with higher education facilities
particularly in Beijing.
And that then produces a large number of overseas students and commercial success
for the University of Sydney.
And I would say primarily for that reason,
he was being celebrated and given an honorary Doctorate,
you know, to bolster the commercial interests of the University of Sydney.
And I found it remarkable
that when I raised concerns about his deeply unethical history
and he admits to transplanting
you know, hundreds if not thousands of livers from executed prisoners,
he admits to that.
When I pointed out that that was a gross ethical breach on by any standards,
would be unlawful here,
the Sydney University administration and the Senate simply ignored me.
And for me,
it was a clear case of them putting narrow commercial interests
ahead of what I think should be minimum ethical standards for our universities.
And didn't you sue them over
they were asked to release emails about this relationship?
We have laws that are euphemistically called "freedom of information laws" in Australia.
I think most Western democracies have them.
At least on paper.
Yes, always on paper, well, we have the laws on paper.
I request that all of the communications that went to the Senate
and went to the university
when they were considering granting him the honorary doctorate
And what I got back was page after page after page of blanked out documents,
because they didn't want to show the public
what they said about it
So it was entirely redacted.
I think we got one email that had gone to all staff and students
which we already had,
which largely led to our Freedom of Information request,
but all of the actual key documents
the reasons they gave
for giving this guy an honorary Doctorate
all of that was blanked out.
And so you sued them to unredact that
Yeah, we had to take them to court to get them to unredacted
and we ended up getting a significant amount of it
unredacted
And what it showed mainly was what they were refusing to look at,
there was no information going to the Senate or the decision-makers
about this man's history of engaging in illegal and unethical organ transplants.
No mention of the fact that he'd engage
in hundreds if not thousands of liver transplants
using the organs of executed prisoners
And with none of that information going before the Senate,
you know they just granted him the honorary Doctorate
it is like a rubber stamp.
To go back to the infiltration of Australian society,
what can your average Australian do
in the face of Communist Party's infiltration into Australian society?
Well, I think the first thing is
it's a question of perspective
like I don't pretend and I don't think it's true
that they've got some sort of tentacles that go all for a society
and they direct how our state and federal government operates,
it's not that.
They are willing to exercise influence
when they feel like it's something that's seriously challenging the regime
and they're very sensitive about organ harvesting,
they're very sensitive about Falun Gong.
And you know you'll find almost no other MP
actively running those issues
because they get [monstered]
But I think the best thing you can do, most Australians could do is this
spend more time with people from Chinese heritage
get to know them,
engage in, you know, engaging those one-on-one citizen exchanges.
Because you know,
the people of Chinese heritage and descent
who, you know, have Australia is their home
and we're super lucky to have them.
They cannot become and what I'd be deeply anxious would be
if they were to become
the targets of a kind of
what may become a racist backlash
notionally targeted at the regime.
But the concern is it will end up being targeted at people of Chinese heritage
living in Australia and that would be deeply unfair.
That actually makes a lot of sense
are you sure you're a politician?
Well, I mean, I take the view that
there are so few people in politics
who actually are willing to say it like it is,
always trying to hedge their bets
you know, "What would the regime A may think about it?
What would this little sectional interest in the community think about it?
I think people want politicians, I hope,
to be trying to actually say the truth,
not trying to double speak.
The Chinese Communist Party often accuses critics of racism or intolerance to silence them.
How can we raise legitimate concerns
about the party's actions
and not be racist?
Well, I think you've just got to be extremely careful
to distinguish between the actions of a government
and the actions in the intents of a nations people
I mean, in my mind,
the Chinese people mean to be an ally with us,
they suffer far more from the authoritarian nature
of of their government than we do
I mean, I get a cranky letter.
You know, they suffer from a regime
that is willing to jail them if they speak their mind
or wish to exercise a faith that that organization doesn't agree with.
Or removed their organ.
Or remove their organs, kill them and remove their organs.
But, in Australia which has a very very ugly history of racism,
and a big part of that racism has been directed against people of Chinese descent
people Asian, Asian descent, Asian heritage.
I think it is very hard to have that discussion
and to work out where to draw the boundaries.
And I think we need to acknowledge that
A lot of sensitivities there,
and quite rightly sensitivities.
And in fact you know, the former Prime Minister John Howard,
As recently as, you know 20 years ago
was toying with an actively racist immigration policy again.
And that is very raw and real in Australia,
and that means when you're engaging in a critique of the Chinese government,
you have to make it abundantly clear that
we're standing in solidarity with the Chinese people
both there and here.
And when you bring up sensitive issues like organ harvesting,
are you ever concerned that this might cost you votes?
I actually don't think that
speaking up for human rights costs you votes.
I mean I'm in a party
that has a fundamental belief in you know core human rights
and social justice issues.
And you know, if we're not willing to speak up about this
well then who would?
And I actually think the great bulk of people,
whether it's Australia or the United States or wherever,
they actually want politicians
to I think, stand up and challenge power
when power is behaving badly.
They want them to tell the truth,
basically they want them to tell the truth simply.
And I understand you take a lot of your constituents out for hikes in the bush.
Yeah well we have a very successful Greens bushwalking club
And the only problem is that sometimes it's a too popular
and we have too many people out on our walk.
So I feel like a bit of a sheepdog,
you know trying to keep 40 or 50 people on track for a bushwalk,
but we're blessed in Australia, particularly in Sydney
We're surrounded by national parks,
amazing places you know
easily accessible within a day,
And you know for me that's one of the reasons I'm in politics,
to protect and and celebrate those natural parts of the world.
That's great, well maybe next time I'm in Australia
we can do another interview in the bush.
Yeah, let's go to the Blue Mountains,
we can do the Grand Canyon, one of my favorite walks.
Sounds great!
Thank you very much for joining me today.
My pleasure, always good to speak.
Alright.
I just want to take a moment to thank everyone
who contributes to the show on Patreon.
It's a website where people can support the show.
Thanks to your support we've been able to come to Australia
and interview people like David Shoebridge.
So visit patreon.com/chinauncensored
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