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Welcome to Current Conversations,
I'm R.C. Davis-Undiano.
Today, we are going to visit with a young advocate
on the frontlines of social change.
We will speak with Romeo Jackson, and advocate
for LGBTQ rights, and social recognition.
Romeo will also explain the perspective that many young
people are taking on national politics.
Join us for this fascinating conversation.
♪♪♪
Davis-Undiano: Romeo Jackson, welcome
to Current Conversations.
It's really good to have you on the show.
ROMEO JACKSON: Happy to be here.
Davis-Undiano: We haven't had a lot of young people to sort
of see what's going on in the culture-
ROMEO JACKSON: Okay.
Davis-Undiano: -so, especially value your presence here.
Thank you so much.
I think it's fair to say that you have spent your young
life, if I could put it that way, already as a social
educator, maybe an activist.
Do you have a working definition of social justice
that maybe you work out of for yourself or even
several definitions?
What do you think of when I say social justice?
ROMEO JACKSON: Well, I didn't really think
about the question until you asked.
Like, what does it really mean to do social justice work?
And I was thinking it's probably, broadly,
a set of movements, moments, ideas, ideologies to end
oppression of all forms of life.
And life meaning not only human lives but animals,
the planet, right, the water, all those-
Davis-Undiano: Oh, I like that.
ROMEO JACKSON: -types of things.
Right?
That it is just a set of things around ending oppression.
Davis-Undiano: You've really committed your life to that
already, haven't you?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah.
Davis-Undiano: I mean, that's what you do.
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I think it's- because I've been doing this,
right, this work since I was about 19.
And before that time actually, I was pretty like not aware
of most things.
Like being raised black on the south side of Chicago,
I obviously was aware of poverty and racism but-
Davis-Undiano: So, you're in Utah now-
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, I'm in Utah now.
Davis-Undiano: - but you grew up in Chicago?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, the south side of Chicago.
Move to a suburb for high school.
But I really didn't know that that was necessarily abnormal.
Right?
Like poverty was new.
Like, I always tell people like I didn't know that people
paid cash for food for a long time.
I had a LINK card, everybody I knew had a LINK card.
I was like, oh.
It wasn't until I actually went to undergrad that I was
like, oh, like people- they're people who aren't poor.
Like, there's a- people-
Davis-Undiano: A Link card?
Is that like food stamps?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, like food stamps.
Davis-Undiano: Okay.
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, like those people who don't like
who don't have to worry about their lights being cut off.
Like, I had just grew up where that was so normal.
And so, it was kind of that process of entering
into higher education and really seeing power dynamics play
out for the first time between races and genders that
really actually like got me started.
I was like, oh, like there's work to be done.
Davis-Undiano: Maybe you're answering what I wanted
to ask, but I'm still going to ask it.
People that do the kind of work that you're doing,
I think people underestimate it very often.
You really sort of- a lot of things you're not going to do
in your life because you do this because you really care
about it.
Was there a single experience or a single person that
modeled this kind of work from you or was it just being
in Chicago?
What pointed you in this direction and made you think
that you could have a good impact and advance the good
of social justice?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, you know, I haven't really thought
about what I could be doing.
I was a theater major for a while, and I did leave that
knowing to do this, right?
Like it was too- I was a stage manager, which is the most
time-consuming job in the world but like I left that
knowing that I couldn't do both, right?
Like, I wasn't getting any sleep, I was kind of crashing
all the time, so there was that one choice.
And I don't know if there was one person, but I grew up
in a family and community that was committed to taking care
of people and other people.
And I always say, like, my grandmother me taught to do this
kind of work long before anyone else.
Just watching her exist in the world.
Just watching her be caring.
Davis-Undiano: [Speaking over Romeo Jackson] Oh, see that's
what I was looking for.
So, it was a person?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, like that existence was great.
But I also think the work of Audre Lorde, I think,
intellectually and socially and politically, like really
is what I would say radicalized me; where there
really was like, oh, like you can exist as a black providing
in this, as a whole person, and not have to choose that
you can- like, your own personal experiences are super
important to how you engage political work.
Davis-Undiano: Was there like a moment where you maybe
because of the influence of your grandmother and Audre
Lorde or others where you said, yeah, I'm not going
to get a job job.
I'm going to do this work in whatever form it takes,
and whatever it costs, this is what I'm going to do?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can't really think.
Well, so I think when like my work being situated in higher
education-like there was- there was semi a model.
Like we have models of like scholar-activists,
like Barbara Smith and B- right?
Like we have all these models of people who have kind
of walked both.
And I do know the moment I applied to grad school was
the moment that I knew, like, oh my god, this is what
I'm doing.
Like this is- all right, like I'm going to get this Master's
degree, I'm going to apply for the Ph.D. program,
I'm going to make my life out of kind of like this
intellectual scholar-activist model, and that continues
to be scary in many ways.
Like I think it's-
Davis-Undiano: It is scary.
ROMEO JACKSON: -an ongoing process of like-
Davis-Undiano: It's a huge commitment.
ROMEO JACKSON: -making that choice and like this is kind
of what- and like knowing that I can always
change trajectory.
Like, I'm a person who hyper-plans, so I'm like if
I do it I have to stick to it and kind of really seen that
my work can look different over my life.
Davis-Undiano: Where do you think- okay, and anybody's
job, even if it's a job that you're creating yourself,
the kind of work that you do, there's a lot of busyness just
getting there and going home, and so on and so forth.
Where would you say that social justice values comes
into what you do now most directly?
Where are you aware that you're really advancing
that cause?
ROMEO JACKSON: I think it's actually my work outside
of higher education like had to be with community organizers.
So I think one of-I think one of the things that happens
when we become intellectuals or like we decide to do grad
school is that we go into the ivory tower and kind
of forget, really, we forget folks on the ground, I think,
who really risk so much more than I think I do doing
the work that I do.
And so, what I try to do is I do a lot of trainings
and workshops with community organizers.
I try to show up in solidarity a lot because I get the luxury
to read for a living, right?
Like I get to read and think for like 20 hours-40 hours
a week and like that's great but those folks don't have time
to do that because most activists, as you probably
know, are busy trying to survive plus doing this work.
So this isn't the work they actually make a living off of,
and I try to transmit knowledge as much as I can of like
different way of thinking to make the world better.
Davis-Undiano: What are you teaching?
What are the courses you're teaching?
ROMEO JACKSON: So, it really depends.
I do a- I do- a lot of my work centers
around coalition building.
One because I think it's the only way we're going to get
anywhere but also I think how do we think about that race
and training the most margins.
So, I just developed a workshop on how do we center
Trans women of color in our community organizing
or in our practice.
Or like how do we take the practices that we do currently
so we're not remaking things and how do we add analysis
or how do we add ways of thinking that really put folks
up the center.
And so- and I do a lot of like power analysis work.
Davis-Undiano: Is this under a Sociology heading or-?
ROMEO JACKSON: I don't know if I have a heading.
Davis-Undiano: Okay, I mean, aren't you in a department or-?
ROMEO JACKSON: Oh, what department am I in, okay-kay.
I was like I don't really have a heading.
Well, that work is- so I teach in gender studies.
Davis-Undiano: Oh, okay.
ROMEO JACKSON: But that work, that type of training
workshops are outside of that.
The class that I teach in higher education are like
Intro to Gender Studies classes because that's what
they give to grad students.
Davis-Undiano: Why do you think people in the country
right now are so sensitive about gender issues?
I mean, I can't think of too many issues that people seem
to respond more from the gut and often in a kind
of a negative way.
What's going on with that why?
Why?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, so I think it's a bunch of stuff.
I think first and foremost on this land, right, it has to do
with colonialism.
Right?
Like if we think of precolonial era what is now
the U.S. kind of in Mexico, right, that there
was much less strict gender roles or that gender
roles were more fluid, right?
It wasn't as if like there was not gender roles,
but the values that we assigned to them were
dramatically different.
So I think that's one.
Right?
I think the importing of Christianity, right, was
fundamental to colonialism and then reinforcing binary gender
systems, right, that like part of the justification
for European settlers of colonizing the U.S.
was like, oh, like these native people have like gender
roles that we don't understand.
I mean, there's that.
And I think now contemporarily we're still filling that
and then also that it is fundamentally questioning
people's worldviews, right, that like something as simple
as like there are more than two genders that you can exist
outside of two genders.
I don't think it's always about the gender part,
it's about you're fundamentally questioning everything I've
been taught to know my whole life, and that scares us.
I mean, it still scares me.
Like, when I learn new things that fundamentally shake
my worldview, it's still a scary process.
So, unlike most people, I don't go out and then campaign
against people, like kill people, beat them, harass
them, we turn to internal reflection to understand why
we're disrupted.
But I think those are some of the reasons why.
Davis-Undiano: Let me push this just a little bit further.
I mean, what you're saying is really helpful.
You know, you could say that any person you meet challenges
your assumptions of the world.
ROMEO JACKSON: Oh, sure.
Davis-Undiano: You've never met that person before.
They're unique.
What does gender touch in people, I wonder, when it's
being defined as a spectrum of response rather than just
a sort of binary oppositions?
I wonder what it touches that throws people off so much.
Because I really don't understand that response.
ROMEO JACKSON: Well, part of it is also tied to an ideology.
So, I do like that, right, that that pushed around like-
we meet people all the time who may check our assumptions,
challenge things that we think to know, but though that we've
kind of built a society around it we're like sort of-I think
that's the piece that people also that- that I think that
elicits super hostile responses.
Davis-Undiano: Things people just want to assume, and they
really don't want to talk about.
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah.
Davis-Undiano: Okay.
ROMEO JACKSON: Or like- or something usually like, oh,
like, I didn't know people wore contacts.
Like that like-sure, that's challenging an assumption,
but I haven't tied my whole value to that.
We've tied our values to gender and race and sexuality
and ability, right?
Like, we have tied our worth- I think dominant people have
tied worth to such those things that there's more
at risk than like the contacts.
Davis-Undiano: What I've heard from a lot of people who are
socially active is that in the last 10 years they feel like
there's been some kind of shift, maybe in perception,
maybe in reality but I've heard a lot of people say that
maybe roughly 10 years ago they felt that more social
change was really just like right on the horizon
about to happen.
And they feel that in the last 10 years things have become
more difficult.
It's like we weren't where we thought we were.
Maybe we got pushed back.
Thoughts on that?
Do you see things that way?
ROMEO JACKSON: So, I was fourteen 10 years ago.
[Laughs] And if I remember correctly like this was when
a election- like Obama was, right, prime- like we're
in that period.
Davis-Undiano: Yeah, about 12 years ago.
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, well, yeah.
So and I think the election of Barack Obama- I don't
necessarily know why- I mean, I remember as a 14-year-old
like kind of thinking like, oh great.
And for my great grandmother who was still alive
at the time, the election of a black president meant a lot.
So my great grandmother is from Mississippi, like her
mother was an indentured servant, right?
Like, slavery is in that close proximity to my existence.
So, for my great grandmother, for my grandmother, for my
father, like the election of Barack Obama meant a lot.
But I think that was a misnomer, right?
That this idea that just because we've elected this
black body to the highest political office, we have that
we're somehow in a progressive space.
And I also think folks from my age, we came into political
awareness in the age of Obama, right?
No, so the Obama administration was not
perfect, right?
There was still imperialism, right?
There was still- there was lots of things that were wrong
with the administration that we tend not to think about.
But that, for us, that's what we knew.
Right?
Like we only knew this Democratic, this black man
being in political office who had like relatively
progressive values compared to what we have heard
about George Bush.
Right.
Like, I heard a lot about George Bush, but like you're
like okay.
So, I think like part of what the election of Donald did,
right, was like, oh, we are in a new national political
moment that we haven't had to deal with before, right?
Like, we, meaning I think folks my age or millennials,
are just like okay.
Like, this is a different ballgame nationally.
Like we have someone who is skewing rhetoric that Barack
Obama would have never uttered from his mouth, probably.
And so, then how do we respond?
Which I think also gets at a lot of our feelings
of hopelessness.
Right?
Like, I think historically like I was shocked the night
of the election.
I woke up the next morning like, well duh, this is
what happens.
Right?
Like, white panic set in, like there's always a backlash
to what's perceived as racial progress, and so, if we think
of it historically, the election of Donald Trump is
actually not that surprising in many ways.
Like, yeah, like there's always backlash.
Like we have reconstruction, and we have a wave, right,
that led us into Jim Crow.
Davis-Undiano: So is the sequence you're talking
about is it sort of roughly this, that world
where people assume certain things about gender,
certain things about power, that was the way
the world was, a black president gets elected,
for a lot of people that challenges that world,
and basically sets off a period of a kind of conservatism
and reversion to, as much as they can, back to the world
before Barack Obama?
ROMEO JACKSON: Well, and I think national progressive
leaders, so I think community organizers are always kind
of like disenchanted with national politics but I think
what happens- I interned in D.C.
twice during Barack Obama's presidency and what I noticed
was a lot of like compromising and complacency.
And then Donald Trump was elected, and we get this
intense organizing.
And I always wondered what if we pushed this hard when we
had a Democratic president.
Davis-Undiano: Go back for just a second.
So, you were in D.C.
during Barack Obama's presidency.
There was a lot of complacency on the part of whom?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, complacency.
I think progressive non-profits based in D.C.
to want to like what, in their eyes, they say as working
with a sympathetic president.
Right?
Davis-Undiano: So, they just kind of took it for granted.
We got this?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, or that we didn't push or challenge
as hard as we wanted to.
I don't know if you remember, but during the last Pride
celebration, the White House Jennicet Gutierrez interrupted
the President really to name the harsh conditions that
Trans women face in detention centers, right?
Like, that part of what had happened was Pride or LGBT
organizations were now welcomed in the White House,
and once you get a seat at the table, right, we tend to stop
being as radical, as agitatee, right?
But really- and what we saw is that Jennicet Gutierrez
was booed.
Right?
This Trans undocumented woman who was really naming these
harsh conditions was booed by people in the room because,
partly, because folks thought like, oh, Barack Obama has
been so good to us.
Well, he's been good to some of us.
Right.
Like that's true.
Like we've gotten stuff but that like I think complacency,
that okay with accepting any thingness-
Davis-Undiano: That sense that we've got it,
we can go to the next stage, people can make demands
that they should make to go to the next stage
of social justice, and not realizing what a lot
of the working class, white working class, was thinking
during this period.
ROMEO JACKSON: Well I think that or I think what a lot
of poor, queer, and Trans people probably were experiencing
and thinking.
Right?
Because most of the progress we got from the Obama
administration, they didn't really help poor and Trans
people of color.
Right?
Or he didn't help the gay elite.
Right.
I mean, he helped me but like I'm in higher education.
I have all this mobility like you know.
So, there were parts of that that I definitely benefitted
from but to suggest that my cousins who are black and poor
and Trans benefitted-
Davis-Undiano: Well see, and I've heard this from black
friends who say, you don't know what it was like.
A lot of white America doubled down, so basically if you want
to elect a black president, then we're going to make you
pay a little bit.
And they said it was a tough time for a lot of black
communities because of that doubling back.
Are you disappointed where things are socially right now?
Is this a period of- a dark period of disappointment?
How would you describe how you feel about this period?
ROMEO JACKSON: You know, I'm a pessimist.
[Both laugh] Davis-Undiano: So, you-
ROMEO JACKSON: And so, it's always a dark period for me.
[Laughs] Well, and it- and so, I try because I don't think
this is a uniquely bad period, right?
I think it's always been bad and it always probably will be
bad as long as our nation-state is maintained.
So, I know that I think and I try to also hold once- like I
was saying earlier that a lot of us, this heightened
rhetoric is intense and new.
But what I will say is that Barack Obama deported
millions of people from this country, right?
Like, I mean like this system that Donald Trump has
activated and raised in public profile was not built when he
was elected.
And so, that's why I say it's always a dark period for me;
is that we have always been deporting millions
and millions of people from this country.
Right, like Trans women of color continued to be killed
when Barack Obama was President.
And so, part of I think my frustration with our rhetoric
around Donald Trump is that, oh, this is uniquely bad or we
have to- like, I don't think it's uniquely bad.
Like, you know, the government has always suppressed
indigenous and native people.
Like, that's not new.
And so, how do we make sense of the heightened rhetoric
but also stay diligent, right?
Remember, so that we stay focused.
That like these systems and structures are much deeper
than Donald Trump.
And I mean, we can impeach the man but like then we get Mike
Pence, and then we get Paul Ryan here.
Like- Davis-Undiano: Where are we?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, you're like, okay, then where are we?
Right, you're like, I don't know.
So, that's why I say like I don't feel a pretend sense
of dread, but I will say the day after the election, it was
hard for me to go outside.
Davis-Undiano: Yeah.
You know I'm really interested in what you said about maybe
we overplayed the implications of Barack Obama's presidency
when so many things really went on as usual,
and overplaying that, and then Donald Trump is out front
with his racism in just a lot of stuff.
It seems like a terrible contrast, but you're saying
maybe it wasn't that much of a contrast.
He's maybe more out with what he believes, but with Barack
Obama there was hypocrisy?
Just kind of hidden oppression?
ROMEO JACKSON: Well, part- so, the seat of the President
regard- so, and this is a problem when you get to like
identity politics and representation like I don't
want more black people in a racist government just
to enact racist policies.
Right?
Like that doesn't work.
Davis-Undiano: Clarence Thomas.
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah, great, right.
The perfect example.
And so, the problem is that the seat of the presidency
will always be a seat that reinforces white supremacy,
imperialism, colonialism, sexism, -ism as a right,
like current U.S. imperialist projects.
Right?
Like that seat will always have to perform that
regardless of the body who sits there.
And so, I think- and I think that partly what Barack Obama
did was we forgot that.
Right.
Or that we didn't seem to forget that allowed us to like
invoke that identity politics-
Davis-Undiano: He's very smart.
He's very charming.
ROMEO JACKSON: -that he's very smart.
He's an intellectual.
Davis-Undiano: He's sophisticated.
ROMEO JACKSON: I mean, yeah.
I mean, like Michelle Obama's great.
Like Sasha and Malia are like awesome.
Both super cute.
Right, like, you know.
And I think that that's important but I think it's
also probably on like this kind of like symbolic level-
like I- and I was talking to my grandma a little bit
about Barack Obama because I was like, grandma,
I don't really get it.
Like, I don't get why you refuse to kind of critique
Barack Obama or why you refuse to see some of the anti-black
policies that are still like being enacted on our-
And for my grandmother, I just think it meant something so
dramatically different.
Like she never thought she would- I mean, she lived
in like the Jim Crow south.
Like, she just never thought that it would even be possible
for a black body to get to that spot and so like we had
this really intense generational disconnect where
I'm just like like I get the historical significance, and I
get that's important but like still the president.
Davis-Undiano: Well, see, I kind of wonder if you both
weren't right.
Because on the one hand, for Barack Obama to be elected it
had to say something but I'm really taken with your point
that if you look at the real cultural politic and say,
well, what really changed for certain communities that are
marginalized, gender communities and people
of color, you're saying maybe not that much changed.
How could it?
ROMEO JACKSON: Well, and I just don't know what it says
about even people being less racist or less anything
else, right?
So, part of- like Barack Obama is an Ivy League-educated
lawyer, right, like who performs business done
in English and respectability and is charismatic, right?
Like, so does it actually say much that like he actually got
to the presidency if like all these other strict norms had
to be reinforced around gender and race, right?
Like so, it means even my own existence in higher education.
Like part of why I'm here is that I perform the way
dominant culture wants me to, right.
Like I'm articulate.
Right, like I write the way they wanted me to write to get
into school, right, I got the grades that were required,
I tested correctly, right, I continued to perform the ways
that are expected, and so is it really that
transformational, radical, or progressive that I'm
in higher education?
Davis-Undiano: No, I hear you.
I can imagine you arguing, and I would feel the persuasiveness
of it that we in some ways might be better
off with Donald Trump because he is what he appears to be,
whereas Barack Obama looked a lot whole lot better.
But you're saying fundamentally, the underlying
conditions were exactly the same.
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah.
Well and I think that the increased rhetoric may I think
have emboldened some people, right, to maybe act more
violently than they were before but I also think like
this is misnomer to say because we have more videos
of certain things that they're new or increasing.
Like, I get it all the time, we see more black bodies being
killed by cops, but black people have always been killed
the police.
They're like that isn't new, I wouldn't I wouldn't even say
that it' on the rise, I would say we're just seeing
more of it.
Right, it's always been there.
Davis-Undiano: Well, and there's an awful lot
of support for what you're saying.
The research is being done in certain parts of the country.
How the police have acted over the last 10 and 20 years,
and black people have been saying for a long time.
The research is coming out now saying, yeah, they- it's
pretty much what they said.
Just nobody believed it.
So, if I say, well, there doesn't seem to be much
of a national conversation about race, when obviously there
needs to be, I'm sort of gathering that you would say,
yeah, of course not because nothing's changed, right?
ROMEO JACKSON: Well, I think there's a national
conversation on race, but there's not a national
conversation on racism or white supremacy, right.
So like, there is a national race conversation, right, like
Donald Trump's rhetoric reinforces that all the time
with this myth of building a wall and like Muslim ban.
So that's there.
I think we're not talking and we have never talked
about race and racism and white supremacy on a national level,
and that continues to be the problem.
Because we talk about race all the time, like kind of- you
know, where you're like, oh, you got like Muslim ban.
Oh, like the wall will stop immigration.
Like, that doesn't make sense.
But, and once again, even for one who didn't do this, right,
like that racism that white supremacy, the anti-blackness,
that's never talked about on a national level.
Davis-Undiano: Now, your friends who are roughly your
age, would this be- what you're explaining today,
which I'm very persuaded by the way, it sounds good-
is this a critique that you hear from a lot
of your friends that you share with each other?
Would you say this a kind of a young person's critique
right now?
ROMEO JACKSON: Well, I have a very particular friend group.
[Both laugh] ROMEO JACKSON: So, yeah, so I think
in our friend group, yeah.
Like what I'm articulating now- like, I mean we talk
about it.
Like, right, that's why- I mean like we talk about it
all the time.
I think about it all the time.
But I do think that there is- I think this type
of acknowledgement of certain things also is hard to grapple
with, particularly- because I do have friends who are very
actively involved in national politics, who are involved
in electoral politics, who do voter rights organizing,
and those are the types of things I don't spend a lot
of time thinking about.
And I think that work is important and so I don't know
if like I hold like a similar belief to a lot of those folks
Davis-Undiano: Let me interject.
ROMEO JACKSON: Yes.
Davis-Undiano: You know, the line on you and people your
age very often is you're just not involved.
You just don't want to know about politics, but you're
showing a whole different side.
You're saying, oh no, we're savvy.
We're just not going to go with the sort of national PR
about anything.
We're going to look at the reality of how things are
really playing on the ground for the communities.
The Trans, other communities, how they're really, really
affected, not the way it's being described.
ROMEO JACKSON: Well, or they're like is voting
the only way to be involved in things?
Like there's always- so there's like- we have
constructed a reality where like only voting in electoral
politics is the only way to be engaged.
Davis-Undiano: Yeah.
Interesting.
ROMEO JACKSON: Right, and that there's- right?
And like for some like, you know, like [laughs]
people forgot.
But like I didn't vote in the last election because I was
faced with Donald Trump, who is admittedly a terrible
person, Hilary Clinton wouldn't have been better,
right?
Like this is the disconnect I think a lot.
When we don't think of embedded structures
and systems is that is there a policy that Hilary Clinton
would have passed that would have been better?
Davis-Undiano: That would have really made any difference?
ROMEO JACKSON: Would have made a significant shift
in our culture?
And so, I didn't choose to put my energy
towards voting, right?
And so then the conversation becomes, well Romeo
then you can't complain.
Well, I will.
[Laughs] Right, like [laughs].
Davis-Undiano: Well, you make me think that people shouldn't
be assuming what young people are thinking, especially here.
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah.
Davis-Undiano: Okay, not a lot of time left.
If you look maybe like 10 years down the road.
What's something that's going to happen good or bad
in the area of the world that will affect race and race
equity that people can remember you said
and decide you were right or not?
ROMEO JACKSON: So my moment of optimism.
[Both laugh] ROMEO JACKSON: I do think the increased
rhetoric and the backlash created by Donald Trump,
I think- I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope will really spark,
but I think that's happened before.
Okay, will spark I think has us think really deeply
about structures and systems, that think deeply about what it
means when one of us make it, and what that might mean
for the rest of us.
Davis-Undiano: A kind of awakening?
ROMEO JACKSON: Yeah.
And I really hope that we begin to interrogate our own
anti-immigrant sentiment, right?
Because I think one of the things that has happened
post-election is that I'm talking a lot more
about anti-immigrant sentiment in our country.
Davis-Undiano: Good, we can look for that.
Thank you so much.
ROMEO JACKSON: Thanks.
Davis-Undiano: A pleasure talking to you.
Thanks for being on the show.
That's all we have time for today.
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