Welcome to The County Seat, I'm Chad Booth.
It has been 22 years since Grand Staircase
Escalante was declared a monument, much to
the surprise of everyone who lives in Utah.
That single event started a bitter feud with the
federal government which has come full circle
with the reduction of the monument. That is
out topic today. So why was this such a battle?
Let's start by defining a monument with Ria in
"The Basics"
For the last three years, National Monument
creation, reduction, or justification has pretty
much been on the news or in discussions.. on a
daily basis. Experts claim that both the creation
and reduction of monuments is a misuse of
presidential power! There has been just as
much controversy on what qualifies for
monument protection and what doesn't.
Teams of lawyers argue about appropriate
protection under the Antiquities Act. it would
seem that the antiquities act is a pretty
complicated and lengthy piece of legislation,
Right? That is what I thought until I printed a
copy out to read, and do you know what I
found? The Antiquities Act is one page.... four
paragraphs, four hundred and twenty one
words and only two sentences deal with the
creation of a monument. It turns out that the
Antiquities Act states very clearly that a
monument is only declared to protect objects,
very specific ones at that. Here is that list: Are
you ready? Historic Landmarks, {like a pony
express coral} historic and prehistoric
structures,{like Anasazi ruins} objects of historic
or scientific interest like a meteorite. That is it.
It further states that the parcels of land that
may be reserved are to be confined to the
smallest area compatible with the care of that
OBJECT to be protected {The original version
capped it at 640 acres} So how many unique
and specific historical and scientific objects
were listed in the proclamation for the creation
of The Grand Staircase Monument to make it
1.9 million acres in size? I've gotta tell ya, the
list is pretty short...there are only 8 mentioned
by name. But then the declaration goes on to
list dozens of other things to protect, that are
not unique, not specific, and in many cases not
even objects, but none the less worthy of a
monument. Here are just a few, and I quote:
burning coal seams, steep walled canyons and
plateaus, many arches and bridges, sandstone
and shale deposits, sedimentary rock layers,
five life zones {what ever that is}, abundant
varieties of plants spreading across large land
formations such as {are you ready for this}
pinion juniper, an abundance of pack rat
middens, mountain lion, bear, bighorn sheep,
eagles falcons... well you get the idea. It seems
that the 4 page 18 paragraph monument
declaration spends a great deal of time and
words trying to justify protecting lots of things
that aren't historical landmarks, sites or even
objects at all. It is kind of begs the question:
What do you do if the pack rat moves? Do you
make another monument where he settles?
Look, most of the land within the monument
was already protected under various other
federal laws and regulations, wilderness study
areas, Taylor Grazing Act and even other
sections of the Antiquities Act. This is probably
why locals have been agitated since the
monument was declared and impatient since its
reduction. And this brings us to point where I
check out and Chad checks in. For the County
Seat I'm Ria Booth
Welcome back to the County seat we are joined
for the discussion today about the changes that
should happen have happened might happen
with grand staircase and the reduction of the
size of the monument joining us for the
conversation two people who have been very
County Leland Pollock and state representative
Mike Noel who's authored a whole bunch of
legislation about federal lands here in the state.
Thank you for joining us.
Has four months made a difference in your life
out here since they rescinded monument?
It's been a lot better for us on public lands. Since
Trump came into office I've a put that plug-in but
go-ahead Chad. I know what you're getting.
But the question is, has it or have you noticed
the change or are they still running it like it used
to be until they can go through the plan making
process?
I think it's changed significantly where some of
the key personnel positions. Brian Steed is now
the director of the Bureau of land management.
He was Kris Stewart's former Chief of Staff and
we have access we can talk to him and I think
he's doing a great job there. The problem is
we've had 20+ years of with the monument and
what worked and what didn't work and more. It
didn't work then did work in terms of multiple use
and the way that monument plan was written it
was not friendly to people that want to go into
the interior of the monument that want to keep
the roads open and be able to go in and actual
see the monument. It was written to keep people
out of the monument.
Part of that monument. I've never argued with
some of it not even 1,000,000 acres of it
probably two or 300,000 acres is actually
Canyon country that people look at Bryce
Canyon up you know that you go up on the rim
34,000 acres total in that park. Okay, this thing
was two million acres by the time the state
traded out land and everything, they couldn't
manage it. And I'll tell you why a lot of that land
was never visited in that monument. It was
regular sagebrush or rabbit brush invasive
weeds all of that. All that land should have been
managed like the BLM was mandated in 1934 to
manage and it was not. So, what you have you
have soil erosion terrible soil erosion you have
springs that have dried up. You have Piñon and
Juniper encroachment and were not talking
about Canyon country were talking about blue
clay rabbit brush.
sagebrush flats.
Areas that previously had been under a different
kind of management.
You can't just Park public land and expect that
it's going to look better, and do better you've got
to do some work on it. You've got to be an active
steward of the land. And that's what BLM was
supposed to be stewards of the land they just
bagged it and said no.
What impact did that have on you as a rancher?
Anybody that runs cattle knows you've got to
have water we've had water dry up all over the
monument and it's not just from a ranching
perspective this hurts all the wildlife this hurts
the lower End everybody loves the Paunsaugunt
I don't care worldwide renowned. It's famous.
Best dear heard in the whole United States for
mule deer.
They've run out of water, they are hauling water
to mule deer right now down on the buckskin on
the lower end on the Paunsaugunt fact. Okay,
so those are some serious impacts and that's
not just to the rancher.
And that comes as we've learned in previous
episodes from not doing proper vegetative
treatment.
Absolutely.
It's by turning what was a lush diverse
landscape into a solo monoculture of Piñon
Juniper totally no understory. So, who owns the
water in the state of Utah, we own. 99% of the
water. The federal government water rights are
really tied to grazing rights. So, if we own the
water one of the main things we want to do is
make sure that the watershed is protected.
The BLM had it right at one time. I mean all of
these areas that used to have feed for the cattle
for the wildlife that used to have water that was
good rangeland used to be managed correctly
by the BLM, but were going back into the 70s,
60s and then these people with an agenda came
in and look what we've got. We've got real
problems.
Are you worried that by the time the wheels of
federal process turn that the ship will turn
around again?
I'm very worried. As a matter of fact, I'm very,
very worried. And so, you have to have the right
people in place. You've got a new captain at the
very head you've got some of his coaches in
there Brian Steed and others but you have to fix
the team and the team are some of the
entrenched bureaucrats and there is a group of
people on the team that don't want to play the
way we want to play which is multiple use that
don't want to live by the federal land Policy
Management act of 1976 when Congress signed
off on that act and it was passed they said you
will give the states very much control are
planning efforts our ability to use these lands is
inherent in this plan and that changed when Bill
Clinton got in.
True multiple use land was created for everyone
multiple use means everyone, not just grazing
not just hiking not just hunting everybody gets to
use the land ATVs. Okay that was taken away
by Bill Clinton the area that has been affected
most which is most of the monument is multiple
use type land. It is not like Bryce Canyon that's
the take away I want everybody to look at this
thing and come on out to Garfield County and
Kane County and I'll show you.
I hope your watchers would go look at a Ted talk
by a man named Alan savory. He was a wildlife
biologist out of Africa. He's got a wonderful story
to tell of how if you leave things alone.
I've seen it.
You've seen that is a very, very, very true film
that he talks about in that Ted talk. That's what's
happening. He shows the national parks he
shows the BLM he shows the real erosion. He
shows decadent vegetation. When you create
the parks and you take the wildlife out you and
now we can't really do it with wildlife. We have to
use cattle. So, he's recovered all kinds of lands
across the world to protect watershed to protect
grazing and to keep wild animals. We want to do
that. We want our deer and elk to be able to
thrive here too.
counties were asked to submit what they
thought the monument should be and then a
decision was made for the reduction are you
happy with what they did to reduce it?
Well, let me tell you anything is better than what
was flat-out and we had a president for the first
time that come out here to the state of Utah the
state legislature the counties the governor
signed his resolution represented if his
resolution to come out and do this and for the
first time a president of the United States come
out and did that. We need to honor at least I
hope. No matter what you think in Utah honor
that president for doing that.
So, what do we need to do? What is the call to
action. Because we got a time window. We've
got a process that you say is slowing down or
being stalled. What do people who live in these
rural parts of the state need to be doing?
We've got a talk this guy into running again
because we've got a small window of
opportunity.
That's not a fair question for this conversation.
You are absolutely right. I would support this
president, but he's done a great job and we
hope he wins again, but in all reality, we may
only have three years. So, we've all got to work
hard.
You go to work fast. We've got to move quickly
people have to see that the report.
So, what do you do to accelerate the process?
Do what we're doing you've got a lot of people
working hard and this is one of them here where
all working hard Chad were doing our part but.
Can they truncate neepa is there a way to make
those things happen.
I think they can do it quicker. I think there's some
requirements we need some people in there
who can really look at the regulations and say
this is what needs to be done and the timing and
everything. There is a process you have to go
through, but I think they can do something
immediately and one of them would be get some
new people in their that really have the
background and the interest in trying to go
through this whole new plan and get it done in a
rapid fashion. Get those people that really
believe in multiple use of the public lands and
not just setting this land aside and letting it
become decadent.
Both of you believe that if we make those
changes that the land will be better for our
grandchildren than it is today?
No question in my mind no question about it.
Okay, any last comments gentlemen?
No, I mean I think we hit that pretty good Chad I
think it's been, I've been at it over 20 years and
Leland has been at for how many years?
Well, I'm a lifetime resident.
But I mean as far as in the policy position.
I've been a Commissioner now almost 8 years.
Eight years but in the policy part eight years I've
been at it for 20 years and even when I worked
with the agency. My goal was to get some
multiple use of the public lands. And that's one
of the things that happened and when that
changed under the Clinton administration. It
wasn't a good thing. And so I said I think I can
do more on the outside then I went into the
legislative side and spent 16 years working with
you working with my brother from a different
mother and we've got a lot done this Porter
Rockwell right here. He's a solid he's we've got
to have we've got a good commissioner in my
district 21 County commissioners pretty much
lockstep on this issue.
Scoping is always the place where people need
to participate, and seldom do they always wait
until it becomes a comment period On the plans
they've come up with, how can people get
engaged with the scoping what do they need to
do?
Well where advertising the scoping meetings
right now go to the meetings and get involved.
Do you have to be an expert?
Look, we can't compete with the special interest
groups. As far as comments that they send in
they have form letters. But you know what the
powers that be know they're sending in form
letters and getting lots of that. But I think I urge
all of our local folks to come to the scoping
meetings.
Yeah there needs to be input it's not the matter
in the volume of letters because like what the
Commissioner just said it's what's said in the
letters it's the policy right get the science right
and we strongly believe that with the right
science we can have a better managed piece of
land, I mean 5000 acres total between the bears
ears and the grand staircase. We cut out 5000
mi.. That's a lot of land to be tied up. That's the
figure of some of the smaller states. So, I think
we can get it right, but we've got to manage it
and use got a lot of people that want to come
and see these beautiful lands and the way we
do that is very important.
Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. Thank you
for staying with us and will be right back. We're
going to take a personal look at how the
monument and its history has affected some
different people around the counties down here
in grand staircase land. When we come back on
the County seat.
Welcome back to The County Seat. For those of
us who travel to Grand Staircase, it is hard to
appreciate the impact the same as someone
who lives there.
My name is Clair Ramsey and on September the
18th 1996 President Bill Clinton declared a
formation or creation of Grand Staircase
Escalante National Monument. The majority of
the people, all the people that I knew felt that it
was a stab in the back when the Grand Staircase
Escalante National Monument was created and
declared not only to Garfield County, and the
state of Utah but the whole nation. I don't know
anyone who wanted the monument because it
wasn't known. I've never talked to anyone or
don't know anyone before it was created said
we'd we like to have a monument there, I have
never seen that. I think maybe they have over
estimated the monument actually what it's
done and what it hasn't, I have my doubts.
In the Monument I've got probably two
hundred and sixty thousand acres. I am Dell
Lafever, Of Garfield and Kane County. I run
cattle in both counties I have been doing it for
years. Ok, this land I look at it as a garden, you
don't take care of it, the weeds take over. And
that's what's happened out here, the trees have
taken over, and so, you can't manage it if there
is nothing but trees out here. Right now you
can't treat the land, they are doing it in some
places and I am hoping we can start doing it up
here. They used to chain and rail and when they
did that you had deer out there you had a, it
was a good allotment. And the cows summered
out there, and now it's just sagebrush and
trees. And nothing grows out of these little
juniper trees. Look under that tree right there
see there's very very little stuff grows under a
tree if you pull them out of there the grass
comes back. Over the years we have lost over
eighty percent of the grass to trees and
sagebrush. This side here we pulled the trees
so it make more grass over here I haven't
gotten to these over here but the land don't run
too far up that way but you can look and see
how thick the trees is over there and look down
here where they have been pulled out this
makes a lot more grass look back that way
where we pulled a lot of trees that's all coming
back to grass. We used to have really good BLM
employees they was from here from local and
they kept us abreast on whats going on. We had
sixteen government employees in Kane and
Garfield counties before the monument after
the monument it went over 100. It's been a
long, over the years it keeps getting worse.
We'll continue in just a minute on The County
Seat.
Welcome Back to The County Seat and our
discussion on the monument reduction for
Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument.
In this long footprint of time from creation to
reduction I have spent about a quarter of it as a
bystander. The monument was declared in 1996
and at that time, my focus was on boats. The
years of jeeping and dirt bike exploration that I
enjoyed in my youth I left behind when I moved
from Utah to Pennsylvania, (that happened in
the early 80s). So when I returned to the sport
at the beginning of The Utah Trail series in 2000
a bunch had changed. When I left three
wheelers were the ATV of choice. RS-2477 had
never been challenged, Cross country travel was
still the status quo on most BLM land and range
projects were still a major part of the BLMs
mission instead of environmental analysis.
SUWA was two years away from creation. I, like
most, was not keenly aware of the monument
other than it arrived with no warning, cost
Democrat Bill Orton his congressional seat and
blocked some sort of coal mine that was in the
final stages of planning. Since 2000 I have
caught up on a great deal regarding the
monument, I learned about road closures, the
propaganda attack on most users of public land,
coal, oil and gas, ranching, off road recreation
things that seemed innocuous to me as an off
roader in the day. I looked at the
environmental movement in the west as a very
different group of people than those who rallied
around love canal and fought against acid rain.
This wilderness group has always seemed to me
to be about excluding me, because they
perceived that I excluded them.
It is hard to explain, but it kind of
reminds me of the kid in grade school who
didn't have a bike, so he would criticize those of
us who did, merely because we did. Who needs
a stupid old bike anyway, you guys with bikes
stink. That is the same tone I have heard from
wilderness proponents who have driven most of
the effort to establish these mega monuments
across the west... with an eye to exclude
everyone but them. I have questioned myself
about this impression I have held for well over a
decade now, but the point was driven home as I
read the actual proclamation to create Grand
Staircase. This one line stood out above all the
other hyperbole and flap of that document. It
said: "The monument presents exemplary
opportunities for geologists, paleontologists,
archeologists, historians, and biologists." As I
read this I saw a glaring omission. There were
no exemplary opportunities for travelers,
families, for ranchers, back country pilots,
campers or hunters. Which might explain why
the same people who pushed so hard for the
monument, are the same ones who oppose a
smaller national park. Truth is, I think they just
don't want to share public lands with anyone
other than themselves. Imagine if Woody
Guthrie, their standard bearer were to write a
song for them... its first refrain would be This
land my land, this land is my land, it is not your
land, its only my land... Think about how that
song ends.. and that is my two cents worth.
thanks for watching The County Seat. To
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