[Intro Music]
Mandy>>> This is Pure Love, Episode 12.
Ignacio >>> Hi everyone!
Pure Love! Pure Love is the brainchild of myself and my daughter Amanda and
the platform of this online
talk show is to model and to share and to storytell the ways in which I raised her in a sex positive
environment
with all the successes and failures
and using that as a platform to
prevent, combat, interrupt child sexual abuse.
This is Episode 12 and today, we're talking about "fathers." The title is
"Father's...
M>>> "Daddy Issues and the Electra Complex"
I>>> So much, and so we came up with this idea to talk about fathers today because unfortunately
last month
My father and her grandfather
had a massive heart attack and passed away.
He became an ancestor and so
This episode is dedicated to my father, and my daughter's grandfather who essentially was like a dad to you.
Jose Rivera also known as "Pepe," so this is for your Papi.
Alright, so we wanted to talk about the impact that
Or supposedly the impact the society says that men or Father's or lack thereof have
with
their children or how we end up having relationships in the future
So I thought this was really interesting
I know that you have different
experiences than I did. I was one of those people that grew up with my father, and my mother and my father were together
married for over 50 years and together for about over 60 years and
My father growing up, I remember that I was close with my dad
and I remember at one point as I was developing
and when I was a little girl that back then
he
He kind of stopped hugging me, and I remember that I got so sad about that because we were so
huggy and touchy and
for him it was almost it was showing respect for me in my body.
I always remember my dad knocking on our door, making sure he can come in, or you know, understanding our privacy
And I remember that respect constantly with my dad and so that's a privilege
That's a beautiful privilege, and I'm glad that I had that with him.
But I also remember as an adult I have
"dated" my father over and over
Seeking out people
That back then I didn't realize, but have really kind of characteristics that my father had.
and I'll leave it there for now, but I want to know what your
experiences been.
M>>> Well, I have a very
Very long different journey than you, I didn't grow up in a two-parent household, but um I have
essentially three fathers, I guess three dads.
So first is my grandfather
The second my biological father, and then the third is a man who was in my life that I consider a dad.
So my biological father wasn't around for X amount of reasons
We didn't start getting into contact until I was in my 20s
My dad,
He's a very flaky
type of person, not really good with responsibilities...
...communication, things like that, so you know, I've always known that he's been in the background
But you know, like I'd say that
"I know you're there" like a guardian angel kind of, not really guarding, but I know you're around
And then I always have Papi, so like to him, he's like a father to me.
He is the one that's been constant, the one that's been there, loving me, taking care of me, making sure that I was good.
You know, everyone in our neighborhood that I grew up in, they always say "your father your father your father." They're talking about him, so
You know, he's the one I consider my father more than anybody.
"Papi" was my first word, so he's...I>>>That's right...
super important to me before I even realized he was important to me
So I have a very complicated relationship with "father," "dad"
Just even the terminology
as well as the relationships like
Saying the word dad or father doesn't feel right in my mouth like the only way that I would say that is by saying Papi
And I would never ever call anybody else that, ever, like that's only his name nobody else will ever be called "Papi".
I>>> What do you think...
Do you think that relationship that you were talking about, like,
having your biological father who wasn't present
Your dad, who off and on when you were younger you had more
interaction with him when you were younger and then older that kind of fell away, and then Papi the the constant figure
How do you think that affected how you
see men or in relationships, because I know you're pansexual, so
Not just men, but you know, how do you see men has that affected like trust or
Abandonment issues or anything like that?
M>>> Definitely I remember the first time I even heard about abandonment issues was in middle school, one of the school
therapist or school counselors was saying that "I think Amanda has abandonment issues."
And I remember being like "what?" I didn't even like know what that meant, I was like "what?!" but now as an adult
I'm like, I guess I kind of do like just
I used to as a child I used to cry a lot about it
I used to be very sad and like take it upon myself to feel bad, like it was something that I did, that I was
Unlovable, like, "how could you not love me? I'm your child" like, "what's wrong with me. Why wouldn't you be here?"
"How could you raise my siblings and not raise me like?"
So I had a lot of issues with that, because with both my biological and my non-biological father
I have siblings with both and they've all been raised with them
And I've been the only one that hasn't lived with or been raised by my dad
So I always felt some type of way about that, like, that sucks that everyone else got to experience you and I didn't but then
Again as an adult, once I've built relationships with my siblings
I found out that it was for the best. So I was actually the only lucky one that I didn't live with either of them.
Because I would have been miserable and probably would have been a completely different person.
But I feel like, I definitely, I have abandonment issues.
And it comes out in a lot of different ways and sometimes
toxic bad ways where people
who are unavailable, like my dad, emotionally or physically
Or that can't have a commitment to me per se as their child or any type of relationship
who can't communicate with me, I usually end up finding these people as well.
People who are emotionally distant or disconnected
They like my father have many different interests, you know as in families because
My siblings are not all from the same women, so you know, people I have dated have had
wandering eyes as well...
so...
I'm just like you know that plays a lot into it
I definitely do not trust men and I have a like, I have this issue where I'm attracted to men
But I like hate men at the same time, and not like individual men, but I guess men as a race.
Just manliness in this society, I hate, and I just I hate that
so many children
are left to the wayside because
You know, the way that we are, like the way we're taught in this society, in this country
is that men aren't really, they don't get the the intense like drilling about the responsibility of being a parent.
like women do or like femmes or female-bodied
people, because I'm like for us they always say, "this is a big deal"
"you're gonna get pregnant, you you you you you you" It's never like telling a boy like
Oh, you know if you get her pregnant, you know, that's the both of you, you have to deal with it, that's your kid
that's your responsibility, and you need to be on top of that and a lot of guys
Just let that fall to the side
And they don't see how important it is for you to be like present in your child's life
I don't think it necessarily has to do with you being a man, per se
but I just feel like it's about being a present parent and just
You know, just it's, why have one teacher when you can have two, you know
You learn more, you'll be a more well-rounded person, and you guys have completely different experiences in life
And I can learn different things from you, so I'm like
There's so many more benefits than just having a male entity in your house. You know and
Although you know I didn't want or need for anything. Of course, you know as a kid
I'm just like, you know, I want my dad, but then as I got older, I was like, eh whatever
You know it's done now. I cried my tears already. I think after I turn 18-19
I finally was just like whatever.
I>>> Do you think that
Some of those tears or anger about it was in regards to like
What society was saying that you needed to have them or because basically it was his responsibility
And had nothing to do...like I'm thinking about
heteronormative
ideas of
you know...
M>>> I think that's it too. I guess seeing like a lot of two-parent households or
Like people having relationships with their dads it made me really really sad
And I'm just like, why can't I have that, like even with cousins like, besides like, I mean
But even Christina, Katijah, and Chris, they had Papi, you know, like he raised them so I'm like... out of, I think
majority of my cousins, I think I'm the only one that was really like not raised with their dad around
Or a dad figure that was like
constant, so I'm just like...
I don't know, it was a like an envious cry, it was an angry cry, it was a
low self-esteem cry, cuz I'm like
There's something wrong with me that he wouldn't want to be here, like I didn't understand that it didn't click for me
But as an adult I realized that
you know that happened for a reason. I'm way better off and
I'm glad that didn't take me
27 years of bullshit to be like, oh my god
I want to get away from you
It took 27 years to be like, I was way better off without you and I'm glad that I didn't have to deal with that
But I know with Papi in particular, he's a very quiet
into himself person and I get a lot of qualities from him too, like I noticed that about myself
I'm like, he basically is my father because I have like I'm just like him
and I'm just like Mommy too - in a lot of ways and
I find myself - I guess trying to find
Guys who were loyal like him...I>>> Yeah, yeah, Papi was loyal. That's for sure.
M>>> He, like, I mean 60 something years you be with the same person, and I like in my life, I've never even
had an inkling of an idea that he even considered another woman, like...
I>>> It's funny because I thought, at his eulogy
I spoke about his dedication to my mother
And how yeah it was like my father was created and my mother was created
And you know, like, he, I don't think he could have ever been with any other woman...M>>>No
and at the same time it's interesting that I see that love and acknowledge it and I
I'm polyamorous so for me
that
it was beautiful, but it was a part of a different spectrum a part of
part of a larger spectrum, I should say, in terms of love and I...
Not that I don't understand it, but it's just like amazing to me to
Be in love with one person for the rest of your life, and I, you know, again
It's not me, but I honor that I definitely honor it and it worked for them and completely worked for them
M>>> Somewhat
I>>> You know, every relationship was difficult and people have to struggle and I often say my father was a complicated man. he was imperfect
M>>> Simple but complicated...I>>> Yes, but you know one thing was for sure
he loved his family, and he loved his wife and
And yeah, and he was a good man. He was a good man with demons but a good man, a very good man. M>>> Yeah.
I>>> Um
I said before like that I dated a lot of
people that reminded me of my father
And I didn't know it at the time and afterwards when I was like examining the things that it was interesting because was
it was dating the the bad parts, of the things that I didn't like, and I sometimes think
It's because of us wanting to change it.
You know, it's like we don't have an opportunity to change that so we find...M>>>... that person
I>>> subconsciously find these things so that, "I'm gonna make this right"
"I'm gonna change it and it'll be okay" and when I figured out what I was doing, I was like I can't change anyone.
It's not my place to do that.
People have their own journey, and they get to do what they need to do.
And then, you know, I was more intentional about how I was
seeking people or you know just
Like falling into these like cycles and stuff, so I'm glad that I noticed it, and then I stopped it.
And obviously, I think sometimes people "date"
You know, their fathers
and it's a good thing because they're finding all the beautiful qualities of
this person who raised them, who was there for them who protected them, who loved them.
M>>> Yeah, who you showed them
what to look for in a person, like, you see these good qualities because they're teaching you that's what you should be looking for.
And I see a lot of good qualities of Papi that I wish that I could see in guys in my generation cuz
I don't know what's going on. I really don't with the 90s, early-90s kids the late-90s
But you know like 95 no, I'm not even 95 like 93
1990-93 I don't know what's going on with us.
so I don't know, I just like, I feel like I strive to find someone who would
who would want like who would willingly want to be
Faithful to me and only me for that long or even consider it, you know. I>>> Because you identify as monogamous
M>>> Yes. I>>> So that's like finding "the person" is important to you and that loyalty and longevity.
M>>> And I think that goes into the whole dad thing too because I'm just like
I've had fathers who've loved many, you know, at the at the same time, technically.
So I'm just like, well while you were all loving everyone else you weren't really loving me.
So I need someone to just love me, and not everybody else cuz I'm mean, I don't knock it.
You know, if that floats your boat, then that's you, you know, that's your business, but for me personally
I guess that it's like deeply ingrained with that abandonment and just needing you to myself
But not in a like... cuz I'm always like leave me alone.
But you know, like I still want to know like go in the other room, but just let me know you still love me.
I>>> Do you - so let me ask you this - do you think in me raising you and the way we navigated
Your biological or your biological father your dad not being there. What could I have done differently
to, I don't know, better understand, better empathize, or just support you
In that way, do you think anything could have been different?
M>>> No, cuz I mean like whenever I asked about them, you know
You looked up. You look them up for me to find them so I can see them.
You know, you made the connections.
You didn't trash talk them, like, you weren't like "he's a piece of shit"
And "that's why he's not around" and "he's off with this other woman, and that's why he's not here"
You know, like I feel bad for kids who have mothers who are so bitter against their like the other
parent of the child that they make - they involve the children in their issues.
I hate that, and I'm really really glad that you didn't do that for me, because I know a lot of parents
are just like, "your father ain't shit, and that's why he's not here"... I>>>...and it's tough, it's tough not to do that, you know
M>>> Because you know his true character
And I don't know and you're just like, I want you to know so you don't like to prevent that
but it's like I had to figure it out on my own cause it's like, you know
He's still at the end of the day, you know, he's still my dad and regardless of what happened, you know, I still have
sometimes, well before I had the need and the right, you know, to try to build a relationship with him
But, now I'm just like, it is what it is. You know?
"How are you?" stuff like that, but
The only true father, I guess
is an ancestor now.
I>>> Well, I'm a true believer that we can create the families that we want that two-parent households don't have to be the case it could
be a village of people that love and care for the child or children or people in it and
And of course I believe in
any kind of family structure that people want to create for themselves. It's really healthy and good and, of course more people
loving on a child is always a good thing. I personally just don't like the demonization of like
independent, solo, or... you know, parents. It is, it is hard because this world makes it hard.
But I I feel like when I was raising you I was like trying to embody that.
Even though they're not there, we can make this you know we're a team.
It's you and me against the world. M>>> I definitely felt that so that's why after a while I was like
I don't even know why I'm trip'n
I>>> But I mean I could understand that because, you know, you don't live in a vacuum.
Right, you like the whole world is around you and the whole world is saying
You know, you need a dad and a mom and then me, look at me, weirdo.
So, we screwed that all up.
M>>> That's Okay. We had a nice weirdo family.
I>>> Haha, that's what I'm saying.
But you know yeah, I think that it's not
it's not ludicrous that you're going through these feelings and thinking about that and
interestingly enough, I was in a two-parent household and a lot of times, I struggled with that
I struggled with it because of my own ideas about compatibility and communication style and
And things like that, but that was my own personal
opinion and as an adult I get to craft the relationship structure that I think works for me.
Without, you know
downing anybody else, right.
Yeah.
M>>> I think if I were trying to like I guess "date" my father
I would only be referring to Papi and the qualities that I saw in him as a provider as a father
and
I felt like maybe, like I mean, I would consciously seek out someone like Papi in that respect.
but subconsciously
I sought out my biological father, or my dad and those terrible qualities and
Trying to like, make them see that I was worthy enough for them to stay.
I>>> So it's that it's like trying to fix it. M>>> Yeah, because I'm like, we're too far gone
you're not gonna change so maybe
I can make this other person see that I'm worthy, and then I'll feel better and then it won't hurt so bad about you.
So I know like that was a big thing for me, too
And I'm just like, you remind me of my dad like you're just an asshole.
And I don't even know why I'm dealing with this so
Now I'm in a different spot, but growing - you know like in the beginning
I was very like
Why do I keep meeting these people, like why won't anyone stay and then it goes down the whole spiral of daddy issues.
And if the
supposed to be number one man in my life couldn't stay, why would anyone else stay, so that was a
huge cloud over my head, too
with dating
relationships or dealing with men in general.
I>>> Do you still feel that way, like, what if he didn't stay then why would anybody else want to stay?
M>>> Kinda, yeah.
I>>> But it's even, the way you're talking about it now, it's like
I understand those feelings before but then now in retrospect
Do you think that there's
room for shifting that idea because
them leaving has absolutely nothing to do with who you are and your loveability.
M>>> Logically yeah, you know logically you know that but your heart and your brain are two different things.
So you're just saying I can tell myself
You know monsters aren't real. There's nothing under my bed right, but I'm still gonna sleep with a nightlight.
I mean, that's not true. That's an example. I like the dark now.
Yeah, so I'm just like if I were to you know
I tell myself all the time like, "I know it wasn't me" right, look
I know the reasons why you weren't around, I know why you couldn't be a father to me
I know it has absolutely nothing to do with me, but you still internalize it.
Because it's like that's supposed to be one of the first like pure
unfiltered bond, you know, like the bond with your mom and a bond with your father like that family
it's supposed to be like, you know, like that feeling of security and love
And I'd never felt that from them, only you know from Papi, so I'm just like that was always a big big big issue
I>>> I hope I hope that you can at some point
Through work like shift it and just like you said right now
Now you realize that you weren't supposed to be, they weren't supposed to be in your life
And that you were lucky enough to have Papi, so like I hope that one day you really and truly
accept that
you were
The the man that was supposed to be in your presence, you know, was Papi and
We are
suffering a great loss because he's no longer with us.
But he is an ancestor and we will continue to talk to him in the other realm.
Yeah, let's shift that to some positive ass shit because we did have Papi
M>>> Very very grateful for that.
I>>> I'm thinking a lot about how this relates to like
prevention of child sexual abuse, and some of the things that come up for me are in terms of
you know, this seeking of daddy
You know, this wanting attention and approval and you know harm-doers that are grooming
children
Really look for of those at the margins, those who are sad, depressed
And if...M>>> or lacking a father figure mainly for safety reasons, because they feel like if there's a man in the house they'll be more
they'll be
Less, it'll be harder for them to attack or abuse, if there's another male around if the abuser is a male.
It could be that but also there are you know harm-doers that
don't care about that and they no matter if there's a male, female, a mother, a father in the house
But I'm thinking about how that could possibly be used in terms of grooming or a hook
to
You know, trust in someone, that male figure
Let's say the the harm-doer is male so this male figure, you know, playing on that need and that wants
The idea that a harm-doer could take this loss or this lack and use it to manipulate, to shame
isolate, use power over, coerce, to abuse
Harm-doers look for like deficiencies, right, they look for these things that
society might see as defective or
not socially accepted so
It's like being a fat kid, a kid with a disability a kid that comes from a single-parent
household, a poor kid, the list goes on and on
There's nothing wrong
Per se with these
identities or these people or these
experiences
but oppression and rigid
societal norms aid and the tools that shame
making the shameful
targets, something we should be thinking about.
So
again this
episode is dedicated to my dad. Jose "Pepe" Rivera we will speak his name every day.
He would not be forgotten. M>>> Rest in Peace, we love you Papi.
[Outro Music]
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