How did you start Aikido?
I used to practice judo quite regularly at the Kodokan.
My house was in front of Yasukuni Shrine in the Chiyoda district,
so it was very close to Suidobashi, where the Kodokan was.
So I started going there when I was a child.
When I was in high school, I became friends with the son of the late Mr. Danzaki,
the president of Iaido Federation, who had also been a Sumo fighter.
So because he was a sumo fighter,
I heard that Ueshiba Sensei could throw Tenryu, a Sumo wrestler who used to go to Hombu Dojo.
So via that connection, I was introduced and invited to visit the dojo.
I think it was 5 or 6 p.m.
Tada Sensei was teaching, he was 3rd Dan at the time.
There were 5 or 6 people training.
It was still the time where refugees from the war were living in the dojo,
one third of the dojo served as their living quarters.
Aikido was not well known.
It was during the fall in my last year of high school.
As I was about to leave, Tada Sensei told me to join the dojo if I liked it.
So I did it at the end of April, after I started university.
This is how I got to know about Aikido.
Aikido and Daito-ryu were not well known then...
Most people didn't know such thing as koryu jujutsu
however, jukendo, and karate were widely known.
Western wrestling was also popular,
but koryu jujutsu was not a thing at that time.
Aikido wasn't known either.
I joined the dojo in April 1955,
and Aikido was first shown to the public in September that same year
on the roof of the Takashimaya department store.
I was a newcomer then so I just helped with carrying tatami,
but that was the first time aikido was performed in public.
Isoyama Sensei told me that the term "Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu", not "Aikido" was written on his Iwama registration documents.
At Hombu Dojo, people registered the same way as they do now.
They didn't keep records.
Well, I joined in 1955.
There were usually 5 to 10 people during the classes at the Hombu Dojo.
Kisshomaru Sensei was still working at a security firm.
Tada Sensei was the subsitute teacher.
Two years later, around 1957,
Kisshomaru Sensei started to run Aikido full time.
We started to have more training sessions after that.
Practice used to be in the mornings at 6:30, as well as during the evenings.
We adopted the current 5-classes schedule after Kisshomaru Sensei quit his job.
What made you decide to become a deshi at Hombu?
Well, Hombu was close to my house,
I did Judo,
the Kodokan was a big organization so there were no interactions between its members.
Hombu wasn't like this, and we would have tea before or after training
we would do calligraphy together,
and we would go out drinking at night.
It was interesting to hang out with people.
The uchideshi all came from the countryside
so they were different and they thought completely differently,
even at the same age.
It was interesting.
That was the main reason why I quit the Kodokai and opted for Aikido.
Human interactions and friendship among uchi deshi.
It was chaotic.
When there was no training, we were free to do anything, like drinking at night.
Of course we would clean up and do grocery shopping
but there was no space to practice during off hours
because people were still there, hanging around.
They would do sumo and arm wrestling
and go out for a drink at night as it was close to Shinjuku.
We had senpai-kohai relationships
and those who had money, usually senpais, would pay.
When some of us received money from their parents, we would go drinking.
At some point we were living and eating with Ueshiba Sensei.
We didn't have to worry about anything but getting food to eat.
How was the practice among uchi deshi?
It was rough because everyone was young.
We were testing each other, saying that techniques were not working, or that they didn't hurt.
I wasn't not big so I did circular motions to get my opponents tired.
I would also get up quickly after being thrown.
But I guess that was good for training.
Which teachers influenced you the most?
Different teachers had different ways of thinking.
There were some aspects that I found excellent, and others that I didn't quite agree with.
Those different teachers helped me become who I am now.
Also, there wasn't a uniform set of techniques.
I think that's why Aikido developed.
Well I was an assistant for Tohei Koichi Sensei for more than 10 years,
in different places,
so I was influenced by him too.
I found his way of thinking wonderful.
But there was one thing that I didn't quite agree with.
My parents had a business
and they taught me to respect my origins,
that's why I remained at Hombu.
Tohei Sensei left the dojo on March 31st.
I was sitting in the office when they left,
and Kisshomaru Sensei looked at me and said: "Oh you are still here Kobayashi?"
I guess he though that I would leave too since I was Tohei Sensei's assistant.
But yeah, I thank my parents for teaching me.
I think we have to respect our origins.
Were there Dan examinations at the time?
No there was no such thing.
We didn't have tests.
Once per year, during kagamibiraki,
new Dan promotions were put up on the walls.
But when more people came,
we established a certification system.
If O Sensei no longer gave grades himself, what does it take to call oneself a student of O Sensei?
Well, it was informal in my time
and I think one could be considered the student of a sensei if they respected him.
In terms of training, there are different ideologies.
As far as how many years, there's no fixed period.
Some people would only meet him during seminars, especially in the countryside.
O Sensei would tour the regions.
Travelling was not as convenient as it is now too.
There used to be a seminar once a year in March.
We had a week off from training at Hombu,
and there was only O Sensei's training.
There were teachers who only came during those times.
So I don't know.
I think it's enough to say that one was a follower of Ueshiba.
Did you meet the pioneers of European Aikido such as Mochizuki Minoru or Abe Tadashi?
Mochizuki Minoru Sensei was the uncle of the friend, with whom I started an Aikido club at Meiji University.
He was one or two years below me.
So we went to university camps together.
I have a picture of it over there.
We did two university training camps at Mochizuki Sensei's dojo in Shizuoka.
When Mochizuki Sensei came to Hombu Dojo, nobody else knew him personally
so I got to talk to him a lot.
Mochizuki Sensei had been sent to Ueshiba Sensei by Kano Sensei.
Kano Sensei couldn't invite Ueshiba Sensei to the Kodokan so he sent Mochizuki Sensei.
I think Mochizuki Sensei had some conflicting ideas with Ueshiba Sensei
regarding how to perform Aikido when he went abroad.
Abe Sensei had a short temper and would easily get into fights.
Apparently there were some incidents abroad as well.
But that's because of this that they could go to whole new places and promote Aikido.
I knew them both personally though not for so long,
and I respect them as the people who created paths to the new world.
Did you ever consider going abroad like they or some of your peers did?
People before me went abroad, like America and Europe, but I didn't.
I liked the practice of Aikido as it was and Iwas just doing that.
Then one day I was called by the head teacher, Tohei Koichi
and he talked about Burma, nowadays' Myanmar.
Yamaguchi Sensei was already there.
Because Japan had caused troubles in South East Asia during the world war two,
we were compensating them since we lost.
As part of that, Yamaguchi Sensei was staying there for two years,
and I was asked if I would go there as an assistant.
I said: "Whatever" and Tohei Sensei said: "Whatever is not an answer!!"
"Are you going or not!?"
So I said: "OK, I'm going."
But I didn't want to go
so I kept procrastinating going to the embassy.
Three months later, there was a coup d'état
and the country went under the military regime,
so they stopped inviting foreign teachers.
Conversely they sent five soldiers to Japan to learn judo and aikido
and I was in charge of taking care of them.
Perhaps I was meant to stay in Japan to practice.
I liked the practice itself.
Actually, I didn't think of teaching until I opened the dojo.
Now that I think of it, it worked out fine and we have this place for communication.
To be honest,
most of the people who went abroad hadn't been training for that long.
They went abroad when they were in their 30's so they had trained for about 10 years.
But the fact that they promoted aikido that much,
they must have had some intense training in such a short period.
I think that's what made it possible, with everyone's talent.
Interestingly,
they developped different characteristics according to the country that went to.
Those who went to France were more social and those who went to Germany like Asai liked order.
Those who went to the country that didn't suit them were rejected and came back, or went somewhere else.
So the shihans who stayed there, and there are many of them,
are the ones that could adapt themselves to the country or the place they went to.
But there are also many that couldn't adjust and who came back.
Talking about pioneers, do you remember Andre Nocquet?
Mr. Nocquet was the first foreigner to become an uchi deshi.
He ate and slept in the Dojo with the rest of us.
He was much older than us, I think he was over 40 then.
He was admirable, he worked hard for 2 years.
It was at a time when we didn't have many foreigners in Japan
but he stayed with us at the dojo for 2 years.
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