The Google Manifesto: Was it wrong? Was it right?
Shouldn't I be able to just google the answer?
I guess I can, but then I run the risk of having to actually read it.
I ain't doing that.
But instead, we have Dr. Debra Soh, a science journalist and columnist for Playboy and Globe and Mail,
to tell us what James Damore got wrong.
(music)
Critics of James Damore's manifesto say that he cherry-picks the science, or overplays some of the science.
Can you respond to this criticism in a way that does not require any of our viewers to do any actual research?
[DR. SOH] I can, so, there's definitely consensus within the field.
We know that these sex differences exist, we know that there are biological sex differences in the brain,
that are not due to socialization, this is due to exposure to prenatal testosterone in the womb,
the reason why you don't see so many people saying that publicly
is because it's considered politically incorrect.
So, the only, you know, "experts" that you'll see are people who are touting this accepted narrative that
any sex differences we see are socialized, or that there are no differences between men and women.
People like to hear that stuff, so that's why we see most of that being promoted in media,
but definitely within the field, people know that you can't say these things publicly
in terms of sex differences, because there's going to be a public backlash.
(music)
[LOU] How did we get to this place where it's not okay to state what seems to be scientific consensus?
[DR. SOH] I think it's been a trend that's been growing in recent years.
There was a paper that came out in 2015 that gained a lot of media attention.
It claimed that there are no differences between male and female brains and that they exist along a mosaic.
This is something that the public really liked to hear,
and the media outlets were all over it, the study gained a lot of attention.
But another team of researchers actually analyzed the exact same brain data from that study,
and found that you could, in fact, tell male and female brains apart, on average, 73% accuracy.
So, this is higher than chance.
But that study did not receive nearly as much media attention,
so the initial study's findings continued to be perpetuated, even though it's not factually accurate.
[LOU] You did a lot of fMRI studies on brains, so if we were looking at a male brain or a female brain,
what are some of the different things we'd find?
[DR. SOH] There are differences in brain structure,
so there's one part of the brain called the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus,
[LOU] Did you just make that up? Is that a real thing?
[DR. SOH] I did not just make that up.
[LOU] 'Cause I've never heard of that before, and I'm a man.
[DR. SOH] Well you need to read a bit more then. [LOU] Okay!
[DR. SOH] So that part of the brain is consistently larger in men than women.
When we look at white matter connectivity,
there are a greater number of connections running from the front to the back of the brain in men,
and more running interhemispherically, so between left and right hemispheres, in women.
So there's very strong literature showing these differences,
it's just been, for some reason, considered taboo.
I mean, people are afraid that these research findings will be used to justify sexism,
but I think it's really ridiculous and futile to try and pretend like the research doesn't exist
or that the research is wrong,
and to think that that's somehow going to end sexism.
Even if research did show that men and women are completely identical in every way,
I don't think a sexist person is going to say,
"Well, I would have been sexist, but the research shows that there are no differences,
so I guess I have to change the way I think."
(music)
[LOU] According to the rebuttal article in Wired, which we'll link to,
scientists agree that men and women think differently,
and they've been researching it for more than a century,
but at this point, the results are ambiguous.
Is that true? Are the results ambiguous?
[DR. SOH] No, they're not ambiguous.
There's definitely a consensus within the field, it's just that people aren't able to say that.
I'm not sure how people can write these things, it's just not true.
If you ask anyone in the field, they will tell you that these sex differences are real.
And the research literature,
there are thousands of studies documenting the effects prenatal testosterone alone.
So you can't pretend that that doesn't exist.
(music)
[LOU] James Damore said that the differences between men and women are a matter of biological science,
Yet David Schmitt, who led a team who wrote one of the studies that Damore actually cited,
says that Damore is misconstruing, at least, their research, and that only about 10% of the difference,
at least when it comes to neuroticism, is biological.
The other 90% are the result of individual variation, environment, upbringing.
How can we stop science denial from the very scientists who run the studies?
[DR. SOH] I get this question a lot.
A lot of people actually reach out to me on social media, they email me, saying "What can we do? We're fed up also."
But the climate right now is so hard for people to speak out.
I think it's really important, I think we're reaching a point where you have to,
because we don't really have a choice.
I understand, obviously as a journalist,
I chose to leave academia so that I could speak and write freely about these issue.
But I understand for other people, it's not so easy, and they have to worry about possibly losing their jobs.
But we're reaching a point now where these ideas are actually being entrenched in our society,
to the point where people don't actually know what the truth is anymore.
If you look at the scientific research that's coming out, it's politically motivated,
and so that's what journalists and the media pick up on, and that is what people read,
and so that changes how we talk about these issues.
I'm actually worried as to what biology textbooks are going to look like in a couple years,
because I don't think they're going to be based on actually factual research anymore.
So I think, as hard as it is, people need to speak out, even in small ways.
And I think being silent at this point is almost like you're being complicit.
(music)
[LOU] Many people, they don't deny that there are differences between toy preferences for 18-month-olds,
but they say that it's a pretty huge leap to go from that,
and to assume that the current percentage of, say, female employees at Google,
is dictated by biology, and there's no evidence that show females are worse at software engineering.
Are they right?
And have there been any studies on whether male or female 18-month-olds are better at software engineering?
[DR. SOH] I think it's great that more initiatives are being put forward to encourage kids, and girls in particular,
to be interested in coding.
But I don't think that we need more girls in coding to be a sign that we are a truly egalitarian society.
I think there's this misinformed idea that girls have to be the same as boys.
Why can't girls have female-typical interests? And why isn't that perfectly acceptable as well?
And also why can't boys have female-typical interests?
I think it's important to stress that James Damore wasn't talking about ability in his memo.
And also, in the column I wrote for The Globe and Mail, I wasn't talking about ability.
He was talking about interest.
So I don't know why it's controversial to say that men and women find different things inherently interesting.
I don't know why it's so controversial to say that these differences are biological as opposed to social.
Why do men and women have to be identical?
I think it's coming from this misguided idea that, in order for women to have true gender equality,
we need to be identical to men.
And, to me, that's where the sexism is,
and that's something that's not being talked about with this movement.
I think, if anything, that's where the sexism is.
Female-typical traits are seen as inferior, and no one's talking about that.
(music)
[LOU] Look, if men and women think differently, and 50% of Google's potential customers are women,
wouldn't it make sense to have programs designed to recruit as many female employees as possible,
to better design their products with women in mind?
[DR. SOH] I could see that.
But I think if we allow people to pursue things freely,
and we still find that fewer women are interested in these jobs,
then that's something that maybe we just have to accept.
Because otherwise what we'll be doing is basically social engineering,
and forcing women to take these jobs when they're not actually interested in doing so.
(music)
[LOU] I guess the question is, "Is there sexism in tech?"
And there was one study that said when gender isn't disclosed,
women's code is more likely to be accepted by open-source projects.
On the other hand, when identical resumes are submitted with female names,
men and women both rate the women as less competent,
and estimate lower salaries than if they have male names.
Are you familiar with that study at all?
[DR. SOH] I would need to probably read those studies to know definitively.
I always like to look at the methods myself and see,
how do people come to the conclusions? And is that actually what the study found?
Because sometimes people will say a study found something that it actually did not.
One study I can think of, that I did read,
came out recently and showed that there's actually a bias within academia to hire more female faculty within STEM disciplines.
So, I mean, that kind of calls into question those findings.
But as a woman with a PhD in STEM, I won't say that I've never...
[LOU] You don't have to brag, okay?
[DR. SOH] I won't say that I've never experienced sexism, but at the same time, here I am and I have my degree.
We all experience some form of adversity in life,
I think it's just a choice whether you choose to focus on that or stay focused on what you want to achieve.
[LOU] Would it help if people in the workforce never disclosed their gender?
Like, they all just wore burkas?
[DR. SOH] I don't think so.
[LOU] Oh. Okay.
[LOU] Thanks for watching!
Be sure to subscribe to our channel, We The Internet TV,
and follow us on Twitter and Facebook for new videos every week.
And follow Dr. Soh @DrDebraSoh on Twitter.
Follow. Don't stalk.
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