Ziad: The only thing that we are missing is a state.
So, tell us dear world, why don't we have a state?
That was the idea.
Danielle: Dr. Ziad Asali I'm so
delighted to welcome you...
Ziad: My pleasure.
Danielle: …to AEI for this conversation about the 50th Anniversary of the Six-Day
War.
You are the president and the founder of the American Taskforce for Palestine and so a
perfect person with whom to discuss this.
In some ways, what's so incredible is how little has changed in the 50 years since the
Six-Day War.
How do you see it?
Ziad: Well, the Arabic word for 1967 War defeat was Naksa, which is a setback as compared
to the catastrophe of 1948…
Danielle: The Nakba.
Ziad: …which was acknowledged to be Nakba, catastrophe.
So, this is the reaction of governments and people at the time.
This is a setback.
We'll get over it.
Things will improve.
It's been a long march not to make any move forward.
That is the meaning of the 50-year commemoration of really a huge catastrophe
for the Palestinian cause and for the Arabs.
It has not been dealt with as a problem to solve but it has been a source of lamentation.
Danielle: That's a fascinating difference, really.
It is not been, in some ways, it is not been a call to action. Or if it's
been a call to action it's not been more than that, it's been a lamentation.
Ziad: It has been a lamentation.
I have to make one exception, it's the only meaningful exception, the only leader and
hence the country that took it seriously was Egypt.
Danielle: Let's talk about '67 itself.
You wrote a wonderful piece about your attitude towards it as a young man in Beirut.
Tell us a little bit about that?
Ziad: Well, I was finishing up my medical school and we were all kind of, you know,
everybody was excited.
We were waiting what's gonna happen in a few days.
It's gonna be a huge war and we'll reclaim back the land of Palestine and redress the
grievance of history.
Across the table from me, at the dinner table, was a professor of surgery, a highly respected
person in our circle as a professor and as a man.
And, so we were talking, and I was telling him how we're gonna now go back and win
and stuff.
He said, "Look, what makes you think that you're gonna win?"
I started counting to him, a bunch were adding to this conversation, the Syrians have so
many tanks and so many airplanes and the Egyptians have so many and the Arab, everybody has so
many and we're ready.
And he said, "Look, I'm not sure as much as you are that anything like this would happen.
All I know, I was born in Haifa, lived in Haifa, was driven out in '48 and could not
make my way back and I've been moving from one city to the other since then.
Now, I'm here and I'm doing fine."
He was a professor and a successful surgeon, "And, I just don't wanna be driven away
again."
So, I was upset.
"What are you talking about?
What do you mean a defeat?"
And, "What kind of an atti…"
I was not polite to my professor.
To my dying day, I will regret how insensitive I was and unwise to the extreme, of course.
I had occasions to apologize to him in person and in writing, like the piece that you said.
Later on, when I came to this country and started working on the Palestinian issue I
could see, you know, there are compromises to be made, realities to be faced.
We have to adjust our self to reality, not to our own ideology.
So, I started, you know, believing in things that are I'd like to think are realistic,
consistent with everybody's dignity but realizing there is a fact of life that's
called Israel and we must start out by accepting that.
We can talk about it but not accept it and that will be the standard conversation, discourse
or we can speak up publicly.
So, young people in this country started focusing on me saying, "What is this guy?
What is he doing, you know, making all these concessions?"
Danielle: Doesn't understand.
He's a defeatist.
Ziad: He doesn't understand, yeah.
You know, he doesn't know there is a revolution going on.
That is when I wrote that piece, 40 years after the fact.
The 10 following years were not more merciful in having people understand that, you know,
there are two stories and there's only one piece of land and you have to find a way for
a future built on a newer narrative rather than on a prevailing narrative.
We understand the previous narrative and commitment but we have to carve out a new narrative for
both.
Danielle: So, it is interesting to look at how the Middle East has evolved…
Ziad: Yes.
Danielle: …since that time.
As you say, in 1967 the Arabs had a pretense of strength.
Ziad: Yes.
Danielle: The reclamation of all of the land that was to be divided between Israel and
the Palestinians by the United Nations, the annihilation of the Jewish state.
This was shown to be a complete lie by the Six-Day War and so quickly.
And since then as you say the Arab world has changed.
So, that was the first.
But I would say that over the last 10, 15 years there's been a further transformation
in the Arab world.
Would you agree with that?
Ziad: Absolutely. One real successful story in U.S.-Arab relations and Israel-Arab relations
has been Jordan.
And similarly, I think that applies to Egypt since then, is that this is it.
This is the last war.
We're gonna have to find a way to live together and accommodate and call for a compromise.
The call for compromise was on putting some real commitment behind a two-state solution.
I think right now the Arabs in general or the collectivity of the Arabs submitted an
initiative early in the century to call for an end of hostilities on the base of a two-state
solution which essentially normalizes Israel in the Middle East to all of the Arabs and
makes them relinquish the historic claims in order to get a state of Palestine independent.
That was, still is, the only formula any serious people talk about if they wanna
have an end of conflict.
Look, first off I wanna give some credit to the Arabs that not enough Palestinians do.
They have actually supported the Palestinian cause, so to speak, before '48 and after
'48 and made sacrifices and accommodated refugees and etc., etc., etc.
They could not deliver.
It's a question of commitment and power.
You know, they could not deliver.
They did not deliver.
That part of their contribution is not sufficiently recognized why the people who were the recipients
of that generosity.
So, in terms of sacrifices...
So, that has to be said.
On the other hand, there's the issue of fatigue.
How much do you go on, you know, supporting a cause that does not seem real anymore?
You know, fighting Israel forever, this is nonsense.
So, they made that accommodation.
Danielle: But, of course, what was interesting was that the Arabs had always been willing,
previously, to stand on principle at the expense of the Palestinian people, if you want to
say.
Ziad: Yes.
Danielle: But, one thing that I wonder is whether the Palestinians have evolved as much?
Ziad: The Palestinians have been victims of many things.
One of them is the fact that they never had the ability to bring about the cause that
they said they were fighting for.
We want to regain Palestine.
Well, nobody told them realistically you don't have the power to do that.
They depended on others to do it until others got tired of fighting and not being able to
deliver.
The leadership consistently from pre-1948 to the present time have not really leveled
with the people like, look, we can't do this.
Let us, you know, move on on a different path.
In 1988, the PLO in the Arab League meeting accepted the two-state solutions which was a huge step
forward.
The problem that we have lived with since then is that, yes you accepted it and you continue
to preach otherwise.
There was a disconnect between the reality of governance in the Palestinian territories
after '93 and a discourse. The discourse continued to be belligerent and, you know,
Palestines…
So, the public has received confusing dual messages and that continues until now.
It is much more of a source of legitimacy with the Palestinian people patriotic commitment
and manhood is to speak about, you know, the very old Palestine and not giving up anything
and get applause from all kinds of authorities while talking seriously about okay how do
we do this compromise?
How do we make it work?
Was limited to the people who were running the show.
Danielle: And not even them to a certain extent.
Ziad: Let me say something that I will pay for.
[laughs] But, in the new privileges of ruling under occupation it was under occupation no
question about it there were constraints initially by direct Israeli army presence in the Palestinian
territories and gradually by a surrogate power.
But, within the East, there was a Palestinian structure that was being built up.
It delivered several things to the Palestinians.
Eventually the absence of direct presence of the Israeli army but many other things.
But the folks who were in charge were allowed to continue the belligerent talk, the discourse,
to continue that but at the same time they understood the privileges that that class
had many privileges at many levels, which made the status quo to them more acceptable
than it was for the rest of the people who continued to have so many problems in their
day-to-day lives.
And, it is this class that is called upon to negotiate.This particular status quo is
not a plateau.
It is a descending curve.
The status quo of today is worse than the one we had in 1973 or '78 or yesterday.
Danielle: So, there's a certain complacency with the fate of the Palestinian people…
Ziad: Yes, of course, there is.
Danielle: …among the Palestinian leaders.
So, this is an interesting question.
I had a talk with Elliot Abrams on this topic.
We had the same kind of a discussion as we are today.
And I spent plenty of time in the West Bank prior to the First Intifada.
One of the things, and prior to the return of Yasser Arafat and Fatah, and it is striking
that, and I wonder if you share this impression, that the return of Fatah introduced a sense
of Arab governance to the Palestinians that perhaps had not been present after 1967. There
was an indigenous Palestinian leadership that flourished at that time that seems to have
disappeared since Oslo.
And I wonder what you think about that?
Ziad: Yes, generally speaking, I was born in Palestine before the mandate so I'm a
legitimate refugee.
I can make any compromises I want because I'm legitimate about this issue.
Danielle: There you go.
Ziad: But we grew up in Jordan.
We were Jordanian citizens...
Danielle: Right.
Ziad: …under the Hashemites.
I have to say that we did not consider it occupation growing up, you know, sensing things
like okay so the Jordanians have power.
But the Palestinians were very much part of government.
They were part of the army.
They were part of the police and they were part of the educated class that dominated
institutions and the economy etc.
So, it was a very organic process.
And things have changed, of course, after Oslo because almost 300 to 350 Palestinians
came back from Tunis and other places and they took over the power.
Danielle: Yes.
Ziad: So, this is the mindset that they brought to a very interesting group of people which
is the Palestinians under the direct Israeli occupation after '67.
These people could talk.
Danielle: Right.
Ziad: These people could converse and they could develop an intifada, the First Intifada where
there was not a single weapon as far as I know.
It was just organized resistance by a network of academics and intellectuals and activists.
Danielle: It certainly began differently, yes.
Ziad: It began, anyway.
So, these people were not allowed to continue as is after the return of PLO from Tunis.
These people were submerged into what the Palestinians, up 'til now call the Tunisians,
the power of, you know, the refugees who did the fighting outside.
This is their claim.
Why did we come back here?
Because we fought and so we are to be acknowledged.
It is a source of tension up 'til now and these people ended up with a lot of privileges.
Therein lies one major lost opportunity -- people always talk about lost opportunities for that very sense--
that they could have a democracy, that is functional, and respectful of others without
guns, without fighting and to live by some standards that are agreeable.
That's not what we reclaimed, actually.
Danielle: And now, 50 years after the loss of, again, these lands, at least in the Palestinian
narrative, are they on their way to reclaiming this?
Are they on their way to a solution any more than in the last few years in your estimation?
Ziad: Not really.
We have a huge problem.
We have an issue of governance.
Right now, the Palestinians are split into two entities both ideologically and geographically.
Hamas and Fatah, PLO, PA without distinct margins because you have Hamas people in the
West Bank and you have Fatah people in Gaza.
But nevertheless, the power structure is divided along these two huge…
In this system, there's not been any elections for the past 11 years.
I have two remarks about this: one, is whenever you listen to anybody in New York or the U.S.
in general and in Europe and in other places they are always calling for elections.
Danielle: Yes.
Ziad: In Namibia, in whatever, Kenya they want elections.
Danielle: Yes.
Ziad: Everybody is pretty silent about Palestinian elections.
It's convenient.
Okay?
Danielle: Yeah, absolutely.
Ziad: As it is.
And so, you start sensing that something is changing when people start taking the idea
of elections more seriously.
Now, elections, if the people are not prepared to participate in the political process, is
a farce.
So, you need to open up the system.
You need to have the opportunity to speak freely, have a judicial system that protects
you as you speak, have a police enforcement that, you know, can apply the laws that exist
and to have the right to form parties, to compete.
Now, none of that is really present now and these are the two structures that exist Fatah
and Hamas and they don't do elections anymore.
They're very happy.
They talk about doing internal elections which is a conference.
Danielle: And they blame each other and the Israelis.
Ziad: Of course.
Of course.
You have to develop a system of accountability within the Palestinian body politic that
would develop the kinds of leadership that would represent their people and then open
up all the other things that come up after good governance.
Improving the economy, improving the education, the standard of living, hospitals, schools,
etc. etc.
It has to be an organic process that develops out of the Palestinians themselves.
Another opportunity that was missed that I wanna discuss is this state and institution
building program.
You remember?
Danielle: Yes, of course.
Ziad: It was real.
It was serious.
We witnessed this.
This was nothing that we advocated ourselves in this country more than this business of
improving government, governance and allowing the people to develop the ability to go to
the world and say, "Look at us.
We're doing things fine.
We have good schools, good laws, good, etc. and we implement it.
The only thing that we're missing is a state.
So, tell us dear world why don't we have a state?"
That was the idea.
There were several years, until the IMF and the World Bank, etc. gave the Palestinian leadership
at the time a clean bill of health.
These guys are doing things right.
Accountability, all this stuff…
Danielle: Then what happened?
Then what happened?
Ziad: It ended a while ago, three, four years ago.
And this is actually a very interesting question, the Palestinian cause became a cause in 1967.
We can say that the PLO, the Palestine Liberation Organization, was created before, we can say
that for the Palestinian people it was a cause but for the world, it became a cause only
in 1967.
I think that's not an unfair statement.
Ziad: Yeah, I think that's right.
Danielle: And in the eyes of many in the Middle East, Israel only really became the state that
it now is in 1967.
And I would say that that's true for the relationship with the United States.
Danielle: It's true for its image in the Middle East which was really indelibly etched
as a dominant, decisive power that was here to stay.
Is that a fair…
Ziad: It is along with the other things that Israeli's managed to build over decades.
They started building way before 1948 their institutions.
Danielle: True.
Ziad: You know, there were a bunch of departments that were present.
Danielle: Yes, during the mandate.
Ziad: During the mandate that just became ministries in 1948.
But they all existed, education, health, whatever, defense, all existed.
Danielle: And, it's that education…
Ziad: It is that.
So, the other thing is that, of course, the leadership of the Jewish community in Palestine
under the mandate was mostly a group of Europeans who are familiar with the way things are done
in the world, in the West in general.
So, it was not a hardship for them to do this, it was natural.
Danielle: There was more of a democratic instinct, okay.
All right.
So, this happened.
What would've happened - this is a horrible hypothetical question but it is an interesting
thing to talk about for a Palestinian. What would've happened if the Six-Day War had
never happened?
Where would the Palestinians people be?
Ziad: There would have been oh so many things that never happened.
'67 was crucial.
You know, '67 is what defined the outcome of '48.
Okay, '48 everybody was on the Arab side was sensing, well this is a score that we
need to settle at some point in time.
Danielle: Temporary, right.
Ziad: Okay.
After '67 the immediate reaction of the Arab states when they met in Khartoum, Sudan
and a few months after that was no, no, no.
Basically no, Three No's is called.
Danielle: Yes.
Ziad: No compromise, no deals, etc.
It was time and reality itself imposed on everybody they thought that this is permanent.
So, how do we deal with it?
It was easier to have the thought and talk among friends than to have it a subject of
public discourse up to this moment.
The finality of the presence and strength of Israel is not acknowledged publicly as,
you know, even some of the leadership would say.
So, there is this contention.
But, this is a major change in appreciation of the presence of Israel.
Arabs automatically have taken this position, you know, we want the Palestine and the Palestinian
leadership and they continued that dialogue until the last decade where the conversation
started with the Saudi Initiative and then the Arab Spring.
Danielle: Which there was no Arab Spring among the Palestinians.
Ziad: There was no Arab Spring.
This was five years ago.
Now, I think we need to factor that in a serious way.
Danielle: How?
Ziad: The Arab Spring is an expression of dissatisfaction across the Arab world with
governance.
That's what it was about.
Danielle: Of course.
Ziad: People lived like, you know, they knew…
Danielle: Like victims of the state.
Ziad: …that individually they could excel and be smart and go to the West and manage,
fine.
It's in that system that things were not working out.
So, it was a rebellion against the system.
It had many implications.
Still does.
And, this is catastrophic in so many ways.
To many countries this is destructive but essentially there is a need to adjust, everybody
concludes, adjust their relation with Israel.
This is combined with an emerging influence of Iran…
Danielle: Absolutely.
Ziad: …in the region which, you know, there's no sugarcoating this thing.
The United States changed its position on Iran with time under the leadership of…
Danielle: Barack Obama.
Ziad: …President Obama, okay, whom, he called a rational actor in his conversation with
Jeff…
A rational actor while the Arabs need to get their act together.
You know, it was fine to get a nuclear deal.
It wasn't fine to give Iran a carte blanche - military carte blanche - economic and social
culture intrusion in all the Arab countries around it.
That is new.
Why do I tie it up with the previous project is because the sense of threat by the Arabs
has usually been directed against Israel for decades and decades.
The reality, the recent reality, is that the real threat now is perceived to be Iran. And
it's not Iran in Tehran. It's Iran in Aleppo.
It's Iran inside of Yemen, it's Iran in Libya now.
Danielle: It's Iran in Gaza.
Ziad: In Gaza, you're kidding, of course.
So, there is a new variable that has nothing to do with Palestine per se but it has to
do with the sense of threat and insecurity by the Arabs, especially the Gulf people,
who have basically been interested in Palestine, Israel justice, and religious issues now to
a sense of maybe we have shared enemies here with the Israelis.
A shared enemy, okay, that is Iran.
So, that brings up a new way of looking at things that are related to both Iran and Israel
in the Gulf and the conversation has already started.
And I don't mean just started, you know, amongst the elite.
Danielle: No, of course, it's…
Ziad: It is consequential.
Danielle: What does that mean for the Palestinians?
Ziad: Well, this is a question that I have to be at least clear as far as I can about
how to get to it.
There is no shortcut.
There's no immediate deal to be made.
Let's be clear in the context of visits or whatever, the Palestinians and Israelis
are not ready structurally, politically, the body politic of both is not ready for a deal
now.
So, it's ready for a transition to a deal.
Now, what were the three avenues to get to Palestine?
One was the peace process, final status, sorry, and the other was build the infrastructure,
you know, build the infrastructure.
Danielle: Yes, yes, of course.
Ziad: These were the two.
A new and interesting element has been introduced now recently by the Arab Spring and the Iran
issue which is what it's called outside in.
So, we're not talking about building it from top down.
We're not talking only about down, up, now we're talking also about a new factor outside
in where the Arabs and other forces in the Middle East under an American umbrella are
looking to bring the joint efforts, collective political efforts, in order to put this thing
to bed under a new security regime in the region.
Danielle: I wanna ask you an exit question but I wanna ask you one important thing first
because anybody who cares about the future of Israeli security, of Palestinian security,
of the Middle East, looks at the rise of the use of violence and terrorism among the Palestinians
and the condoning, the comfort level with terrorism that has risen over the last 50
years as a cause for concern.
How do you see this?
Ziad: Terrorism…
Danielle: And it is not just Hamas.
Ziad: Terrorism across the region is a subject, you know, that needs several sessions for
conversations.
Danielle: Absolutely.
Ziad: So, we cannot…
And we cannot isolate what's happening with Palestinians, Hamas, from the wide regional implications
as to the rise of political Islam and all these things.
But on this issue of security and terror the one thing that I mention some transition of
measures to be made you cannot allow the Palestinians to go on living like this subjected to external
control from the Israelis and to internal control by a police non-democratic regime
without any prospect for economic let alone political solutions and expect them to be
quiet.
They will go crazy and they have.
They have resorted as a very natural outcome of their living circumstances.
So, when we talk about a transition, the powers that be who are gonna be shaping this thing,
have to factor in how do we improve the level of lifestyle of the Palestinians as far as
in both the West Bank and Gaza in order to make them less hospitable to terrorism which
is a process of capturing their mind.
There is a process of capturing the mind of the victims and making them feel victimized
so their violence is a redressing of an injustice rather than violence and killing people.
There is much to be done…
Danielle: Right, the rationalization of their own violence.
Ziad: Yeah, so you have to think of how and this will need external forces.
I hate to say it.
Danielle: It's gonna need a lot of force.
Ziad: And time, and time.
Danielle: And time.
Ziad: …to improve education, to improve hospital, to improve governance, to improve
all of these things as a transition.
You don't start with this.
You don't start with a final status agreement.
You start with preparing people and this will have an impact on the Israelis.
All they see right now is what they think is Palestinian terrorists.
If they see somebody who looks like a Palestinian, they're afraid of him.
So, we need to adjust the living conditions of the Palestinians and make them less subject
to this process of capturing their mind and turning into terrorists.
Danielle: Of course, they were the single largest per capita recipients of foreign economic
assistance for a very long time.
And that, at the same time, that violence arose. We can talk about the reasons why, and
we can talk a lot about the outside exploitation of the Palestinian cause to encourage that
violence for reasons that have nothing to do with the well-being of the Palestinian
Ziad: It's policy.
people. But certainly the Iranians have been very engaged in that aggressively and have
no interest in the future of the Palestinian people.
But this is a curse not for the Israelis this is a curse for the Palestinians.
The Israelis will manage.
The Palestinians need to get out of this.
If you look over the last 50 years, it seems in many ways this is a trap that has…
Ziad: Yeah, of course.
Danielle: …hurt them desperately.
Okay.
The hardest question of all and this whole conversation is all hard questions.
Fifty years from now: You and I will both be extremely old.
Ziad: Yeah.
Yeah.
Danielle: Okay.
Everybody was wrong in 1967.
Everybody said, "Oh, yes in a few years they'll take their territory.
It'll sort out.
Israel will go back to the green lines.
Jerusalem is something complex."
But, where do you see it?
Ziad: Nobody has any experience in the future.
So, let's be modest.
But, it depends on what we do.
The decisions that are made here and now and next year etc. will shape that future.
The reason I am always hesitant to say the Palestinians think this or the Israelis think
this is just a meaningless generalization because the many thoughts within the Palestinians
and if we are able to link up people who, lawful people, educated people, secular people,
people whose forward look to life determines the way they live and their children are reared,
if we interlink at that level and empower the people who want to live like the Italians
live in Italy.
Danielle: Well, or even better.
Ziad: I'll settle for Italy.
It's fun.
But, that mindset needs to be interlinked and needs to be empowered.
Danielle: Are you an optimist about it?
Ziad: I have seen too many setbacks on my own path the last 15 years to be an optimist.
But I'm optimistic in the sense that no people can't be misled forever or no abnormal
conditions like the ones they live under right now can last forever.
Things will give eventually and…
Danielle: A cautious optimism then?
Ziad: Cautious, guarded.
Danielle: Guarded, guarded but better than pessimism.
Ziad: Pessimism is useless anyway but…
Danielle: That is a wise and philosophical statement.
And with that thank you so much.
Ziad: Thank you.
Danielle: It's been a fascinating conversation.
Danielle: And, I'm delighted you were willing to join us.
Ziad: Thank you for the invitation, I enjoyed it too.
So folks that's the end of our conversation with Ziad Asali.
Thank you for watching.
As always, let us know what other topics you'd like AEI scholars to cover on Viewpoint
and be sure to check out the rest of our videos and research from AEI.
For more infomation >> World of Warships - Atualização 0.6.6 - Duration: 4:37. 
For more infomation >> 網易雲音樂2017年五月最热新歌 - Duration: 11:57. 
For more infomation >> نصائح تجعلك مدير مبيعات ناجح - Duration: 2:48. 
For more infomation >> Hitman (2007) - Türkçe Altyazılı Red Band Fragman #1 / Timothy Olyphant, Olga Kurylenko - Duration: 1:50. 
For more infomation >> Мультики Лего. LEGO Ninjago Tournament. Part 2. Ллойд и золотой ниндзя. - Duration: 12:02. 
For more infomation >> World Of Warships - Armada: Kaga - Duration: 4:32. 
For more infomation >> Baby Socks Order Line www.gulenbebekler.com - Duration: 1:11. 
For more infomation >> HAPPY 1st BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION | HIGHLIGHTS | VIDEO 🎂 🎁 🎬 - Duration: 1:50. 
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét