When James Damore's Google manifesto came out, I found out something interesting that I had in common with his critics.
I didn't read the memo either. It's like 10 pages, come on. Who has time for that?
It's much easier just to be outraged about it.
Now I'm here with Dr. Debra Soh, a science journalist and columnist for Playboy and Globe and Mail.
Dr. Soh, who's more likely to be outraged by something they didn't even bother to read? Is that a girl thing or a guy thing?
[DR. SOH] Um...
(music)
So, you were someone who came to Damore's defense. You wrote an article titled,
"No, the Google Manifesto isn't sexist or anti-diversity. Its science."
Since his critics are probably not going to read it, let's go through the title, it's:
"Google's Ideological Echo Chamber: how bias clouds our thinking about diversity and inclusion."
Man, I almost didn't get through the title, it's so long.
Could you just summarize the argument?
[DR SOH] So, I can't speak for James, my understanding is that he was trying to help Google,
and try to understand why their diversity initiatives weren't working.
They had been trying to recruit more women, but they still weren't able to have a 50/50 ratio.
And so he looked at some of the scientific research and was saying,
'well you know, maybe it's not a problem with these diversity efforts,
maybe it's just that women don't inherently find STEM disciplines as interesting.'
And so if that's the case, maybe there isn't actually a problem here.
Doesn't make sense to try and find a solution if there isn't a problem.
[LOU] I wonder if there's any chance that women just don't want to work with James Damore?
[JAMES] As an engineer, when I'm faced with a problem, I want to solve it.
[DR. SOH] He seems lovely, so I wouldn't say that.
[LOU] Okay. All right.
[DR. SOH] Somebody's jealous.
[LOU] Okay. All right.
(music)
[LOU] James Damore brought up testosterone
and its effect on our development and our attraction towards certain activities or jobs.
Can you go into that a little bit?
[DR. SOH] Yes, there's a very large and long-standing body of research literature that
supports the fact that prenatal testosterone exposure predicts what we will find interesting, what we gravitate towards
when we're born and in adulthood.
So, higher levels of exposure are associated with more male-typical interests and activities,
so mechanically interesting activities, whereas lower levels of exposure are associated with socially engaging activities.
So this is why men are usually exposed to higher levels of testosterone,
that's why they gravitate towards mechanically interesting occupations, like STEM disciplines,
whereas women are exposed to lower levels so they gravitate towards more socially engaging occupations.
[LOU] Where does comedy fall on that line?
'Cause I have, like, so much testosterone. (guitar solo)
(music)
[LOU] Where does the prenatal testosterone come from?
Is it all, like, the mother?
Does your mom have to be, like, just doped up with testosterone to make sure she gets an ass-kicking son out of it?
[DR. SOH] At about seven weeks, if the embryo is male, the testes will secrete testosterone,
and that is what leads to the masculinization of the brain.
If the embryo is female, this process doesn't happen.
[LOU] So the testosterone comes from baby balls?
[DR. SOH] Um...
(music)
[LOU] You and James Damore, you both talk about how women are higher in "neuroticism and agreeableness, and lower in stress-tolerance."
"Neuroticism," sounds like you're gaslighting. Is that what you're doing?
[DR. SOH] Neuroticism is actually just a technical term for someone's likelihood to experience negative moods.
So I think neuroticism kind of has a bad rap, but it really doesn't need to.
Rates of depression have been shown to be higher in women so I think if we can acknowledge these differences and say,
okay, maybe we can offer more support in that way, so that women won't have to go through that alone,
that to me is really the point of the research, I think.
I don't think there has to be a negative connotation to the term.
Acknowledging that it's higher in women.
(music)
[LOU] What about unconscious bias? Is unconscious bias holding women back?
[DR. SOH] There's actually been research to show the opposite, that people are actually biased in favor of hiring women.
So, say within STEM disciplines and academia, a paper came up recently that showed that hiring faculty is actually in favor of female candidates.
[LOU] So, do you think that's more of kind of like, all the geeks got together and they're like,
"We gotta meet girls! Why don't we just go out of our way to hire girls?"
Why do they sound like that? Do they sound like that?
[DR. SOH] They don't sound like that. No.
[LOU] They don't sound like that? [DR. SOH] No.
(music)
[LOU] So Damore, he wrote about men being more prone to seek status.
The quote: "the same forces that lead men into high pay/high stress jobs in tech and leadership
cause men to take undesirable and dangerous jobs like coal mining, garbage collection, and firefighting,
and suffer 93% of work-related deaths.
So, are men idiots? Like, why? Why the hell would we do that?
[DR. SOH] Well, testosterone is associated with greater risk-taking activities, and as I mentioned also,
more male-typical occupations.
Obviously men have higher levels of testosterone flowing through them and that's part of the reason why.
[LOU] Hell yeah! (guitar solo)
(music)
[LOU] So on the issue of diversity, Damore called for Google,
and I guess us in general, to demoralize diversity.
He wrote, "as soon as we start to moralize an issue, we stop thinking about it in terms of costs and benefits,
dismiss anyone that disagrees as immoral, and harshly punish those we see as villains to protect the 'victims.'"
Sounds like something a monster would say.
Or someone who was just fired by Google for proclaiming things they didn't want to hear.
[DR. SOH] I feel, nowadays, people are so quick to accuse someone of being immoral,
for questioning things that have nothing to do with morality,
so I agree with him, I don't think diversity is something that should be considered a moral issue.
Again, if diversity strategies aren't actually effective, we should be able to call that into question,
and you shouldn't be a bad person for doing so.
I think we should be able to challenge ideas and have that separate from the individual.
So, if you have a set of ideas, you should be willing to engage with people and debate about them,
and not take it personally, and think that that's saying something about you as a person.
[LOU] Well what if your ideas are just not right, and I don't think anybody should hear them,
and I'm gonna do this.
[DR. SOH] Then you're part of the problem.
[LOU] Or the solution.
[DR. SOH] The problem.
(music)
[LOU] Is there a biological or evolutionary basis for outrage?
Like, our ancestors, like, being chased by a lion, and it's like, "I can't even!"
[DR. SOH] There is, actually, and it does make sense from an evolutionary perspective,
because it helps to keep a sense of order in our society.
Something like, you know, 'we shouldn't kill people' obviously keeps us safe.
It gives us meaning in life, also.
[LOU] It gives us meaning in life?
[DR. SOH] Mhmm. [LOU] Like outrage meaning?
[DR. SOH] Well the funny thing is nowadays, it's gone to such a point where really,
pretty much everything outrages people, so it's kind of gone to the extreme now.
[LOU] You have outrage culture and then virtue signalling, are they kind of one and the same? Or...
[DR. SOH] I would say they're interlinked, and actually,
there has been research to show that with virtue signalling,
it actually has more to do with the person's own sense of moral failing than it does about the issue that they claim to be moral about.
(music)
[LOU] What happens when someone who speaks on behalf of women disagrees with someone else who speaks on behalf of women?
How do straight white men know who to listen to?
I mean, which ambassador for women, or even minorities, do we say, like, "They're right!"
[DR. SOH] I think the best advice I would have for you, whether you are a straight white male or not,
is look at the science, look at what the research says.
I don't think whether you're a woman or not,
it shouldn't make any difference in terms of whether someone's right or should be listened to.
(music)
[LOU] What's the response been to you?
You came out in defense of James Damore, you're obviously a traitor to your sex and gender.
How are you doing? How are you holding up?
[DR. SOH] I've been well.
I take a lot of pride in the things I write about and the things I say, and I know that they're based in science,
so, you know, there was quite a bit of pushback but I have very thick skin, so it doesn't get to me.
[LOU] What's, like, the worst things someone has said to you?
[DR. SOH] People like to use the internalized misogyny thing a lot.
They claim, you know, if you're a woman and you don't really say the things that women are supposed to say,
or think the things that "progressive women" think, then you're, you know, you must somehow be misogynistic.
Which, in my mind, that's what's misogynistic, that a woman can't have her own ideas.
(music)
[LOU] Last one, who does autism better? Men or women?
[DR. SOH] I don't know if there's an answer to that.
[LOU] Men. (guitar solo)
[LOU] Thanks for watching, guys! Be sure to subscribe to our channel, We The Internet TV,
and follow us on Twitter and Facebook for new videos every week.
And make sure to follow Dr. Soh @DrDebraSoh on Twitter.
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