Film Courage: So we have a lot of screenwriters that watch the YouTube channel yeah and they
have screenplays that they want of course made into movies obviously now
your latest film is all I want yeah okay so now this is the second script that
you've produced in the last was it four years um in the last I guess four or
four four or five years or so okay so then did you sell either or both
screenplays in the process of getting them made I mean
well this this film here all I want is a little different from someone I used to
know which is my first feature in a sense that I was approached by my
producing partner Melissa center who is also our lead
actress and she had an idea for a story that she wanted to dig at and then
scratch at and see if it was worth bringing to the screen and so she
approached me and I was working on another project at the time and so I was
brought on to really help her mold the story and help her kind of figure out
what is the most interesting kind of narrative and during the process of
developing that story with her I became more and more involved with I guess the
the the bones and the skin and the skeleton of the story and during the
process we both became really really kind of connected to the story to the
vision and then that's that's when we decided like let's go and try to make
this thing happen so I went away and wrote the script and then we raised the
money and and and you know did the casting and all that stuff so this is a
little different in the sense that the story was not an original idea from the
very beginning of me you know in my head as opposed to my first feature it was an
idea that I was who was swimming in my head for a long time and I wanted to
sort of get it out so this has been a you know
collaborative process with with another person but the process of writing the
story at the end of the day is still very similar you know you're still
trying to figure out plot points and pacing and character and
and length and budget and all that stuff so a couple questions come up for me
one of which first off is financing how did you raise the money we know we did
the traditional route we went to a studio and they said no no kidding no no
we went to we did crowdsourcing you know the the first approach was really we
went to IndieGoGo and we raised a lot of our initial kind of you know budget
through that and then at the same time during the campaign Melissa and I were
reaching out to people on the side who might be interested in coming on board
as a executive producer who could potentially invest in a little bit more
time or money to help us you know bring this vision to life so it was a
combination of kind of private investments and and also IndieGoGo
campaign so did you know a lot of your contributors to the IndieGoGo campaign I
have to say and this is the amazing thing about my producing partner Melissa
you know she's really really great her talent is really kind of like winning
hearts and minds you know really she's very engaging as a personality
she's very smart she's very astute and she went out there and just really
really made a lot of connections to people and I would say you know we had
people contributing anywhere from $5 to a lot more than that and either very few
of them were strangers I would say a lot of them you know were personally
connected to her people who really were allies of her and then the rest of them
were either friends of mine or friends of the cast or friends of you know the
production but you know it's it's if you look at our thank you you know it is a
long list of thank-yous and that's because we had a lot of people kind of
donating their time donating their money and you know this
movie would not be worth is now without them so do you mind if I ask how much
you raised with IndieGoGo how much did we raise we raised I think eleven
thousand you know or eleven or fifteen I can't remember I mean it's it's on the
web if you guys have shown up and I we did it over 45 days I believe and and
and I would say probably half of them Melissa and I did personal you know
video thank-yous to because we wanted to really kind of you know reach out and
and and and and show our gratitude so you know a lot of people came and
supported that film great my second question is how did you know that
working with Melissa would be a fit because from what you're telling me it
sounds like you guys have a great working relationship and that you
clicked but people don't always click and it's through no fault of their own
it's just but how did you know when you first met her that it was gonna be it
was going to be someone that you probably could work with for a while you
know I did I didn't know I didn't know and that's an interesting question
because I've had a lot of that kind of discussions you know those kinds of
conversations with different people I have friends who I've known for a long
time and we don't really mesh creatively or whatever you know I think in the
beginning when she approached me having gone through my own indie production
having written plays and produced plays and directed plays and short films I
kind of like I could see the big mountain in front of her that was kind
of possibly in her blind spot and she came to me full of kind of ambition and
it was so pure and and you know she was very enthusiastic and I knew that she
was gonna get a lot of nose and for some strange reason and I told her this story
for some strange reason I didn't want to be the person saying no to her cuz I was
like you know she's gonna get so many nose so I just kind of said yes I said I
said she was like are you interested in having meeting with me to talk about
some ideas that I have some project I don't know exactly what
it is yet but potentially looking for someone to help me write this thing and
so I was like yeah you know I'm a fan of her as an actor you know we met as
actors and and so I was like yeah and then it was basically just all along the
way again she has a talent of really winning hearts and minds and I think you
know at the end of every session you know she would go away and and like when
are we meeting again and I was like okay you know Tuesday or you know Friday and
that kind of kept going on and on I just kept on you know kind of saying yes to
her thinking that this is gonna be such a impossible task you know and it
suddenly became just this kind of animal of itself you know and then we we both
kind of like started to believe in it and then we were both really kind of
going out and winning hearts and minds together and then to answer your
question about the compatibility I think I think there's a unique kind of yin
yang between she and I because she's great at the things that I'm not great
at she's really great at I don't know what part of the brain she's really
great at prioritizing you know having some idea of how to take care of the
bigger picture in small bites and she's really great at making sure that I stick
to a certain schedule making you know just really kind of allowing me to kind
of like giving me that I guess giving me the boundaries you know because I was
really out there trying to like suggest this in that and she was like what about
this what about that so I think I think we play different kind of notes on the
keyboard you know and I think that's nice you know sometimes you work with
someone and then you're both kind of in the same kind of like area you know and
and and so and I think that you start competing in terms of
approach and so I think along the way when we were working together it was
great because we weren't really able to delegate well you're better at doing
this so you do that and I'm better at doing this so you do that so so yeah
this is a weird question but I'm just gonna ask it um how's your intuition
ever failed you because I get the sense that you trust your intuition and you
really go off that when it comes to certain things that's a really really
difficult question to answer because I've you know as a lot all the
storytellers and all the artists out there know especially in LA there's this
really weird pushing pull between your own intuition and then also this other
thing of like feedback you know people will tell you that won't sell what that
doesn't translate or these are the rules or you don't do that I think my initial
kind of primal intuition has always been a little bit more rebellious I don't
like Authority I don't like being told you can do this I've always been
interested in some things that are like left-of-center per se so I think you
know my intuition you know has been challenged so many times because people
will come and say well that doesn't really work you know or that is kind of
not how you do it so it's been kind of an interesting journey or a struggle
because I I do think that somewhere along the way because filmmaking is a
collaborative process and you have to like open yourself up to suggestions and
different perspectives but at the same time I do think that storytellers and
artists and filmmakers or whoever actors writers you have to open up the windows
a little bit for perspective and feedback but you also have to be be
really mindful of what your internal kind of voice is and and so to answer
your question sometimes I feel like I'm really good with my instincts and some
I'm really proud of it and sometimes I don't know because I haven't been able
to test a lot of things in the marketplace
you know I mean you and I off-camera we talked a little bit about David Lynch
and and how you know I mean I'm a big fan of his work and this is a guy whose
work is so specific and I'm such a fan of his work you know but he's been
proven in the marketplace and so people have an understanding that that's his
signature you know so people will leave him alone you can do whatever you want
because there's a fan base there you know but I think when you're you know
just sort of emerging in the marketplace and you're trying to figure out what
your voices what kind of stories are interesting to you and you don't have
all the money and all the access to people who can help you make that vision
come to life then you start to make little compromises along the way you
know and then somewhere along the way the magic of collaborating happens where
your movie can become better than you expected but also somewhere along the
way you might start to like lose a sense of your own voice because you don't know
whether you got a chance to really experiment with that does that make
sense you know I mean it's kind of a long answer to your question no yeah I
think I guess to answer your question I think it's an ongoing ongoing thing that
happens with storytellers of trying to figure it out I don't really know what
it is yet you know is that right so you know fighting finding a good
collaborator is it really important what's the balance the scales you know
yeah exactly and and and it seems like you have a lot of that balance yeah I
don't know I'm a Libra and apparently libras are never balanced they're always
seeking balance okay so I'm always in flux but that's good though that you you
it's better than I think thinking like I'm always right that you're quite using
you you trust your gut and then that works because maybe then you're able
to be free with certain things and creatively and explore different ideas
but then maybe humble enough for lack of a better word of being like okay I may
not always be right and I'm open to hearing somebody else's process yeah I
mean I think I think a good rule of thumb for me generally speaking is the
best idea wins you know but but but to be very honest that is a lot easier said
than done you know when you start to involve you know taste when you start to
involve gut instincts you know these are things that are very subjective these
are things that are really difficult to kind of value you know when when you're
talking about taste so I think I think I think all of that stuff is just part of
the part of the experience of making the film you know same thing for actors you
know they get a few different takes and then they sort of surrender that to the
filmmakers you know and the writers sort of surrender that to the director and
producers you know so at the end of the day is just a collaborative process and
everybody is sort of just you know throwing it out there to see what lands
I like that the best answer what it was it the best idea wins yeah best idea
wins you know and and and so but you know it's it's tough yeah I mean I'm
just thinking about I've been watching a lot of documentaries on Apple and Steve
Jobs and Steve Wozniak if it had been to Steve Jobs it probably wouldn't have
worked to Wozniak's it wouldn't have worked yeah but because the combination
was right right it worked and I'm just thinking like you know you said that
somehow you just know it's going to work whereas maybe you meet somebody who
you're great friends with but in terms of collaborating right on a film that's
gonna have some rough times and have some great times and not every night is
gonna be the screening yeah absolutely you know that that's the one night that
probably everything's going to go great but yeah that you just have to have that
right calm yeah I think I think with this project
like many other projects there's got to be kind of a heart to it you know and I
think in the beginning that heart really belonged to Melissa you know she was
really kind of compelled to tell a story of some kind that resembled what we
ended up putting on screen you know and and there was something that kind of
pulled her to that you know and so the process was really us trying to like
pull the pieces apart and trying to reattach them together and see what's
interesting so we're really really proud of the film the final product so so did
you submit your screenplays for all I want and someone I used to know to
competitions screenplay competitions no didn't no no I I have submitted you know
previous scripts of mine to competitions either plays or screenplays and I
haven't won anything you know I've got I've been placed various things but
haven't won anything and you know and this kind of goes back to what we talked
about earlier about taste you know I do think that the market doesn't always
know you know and and I think for this film for all I want the intention was
always to go out there and and and shoot it a great example is this when we
started to you know structure the story and when we started to really think
about how to you know bring that idea from you know our heads to the page to
Saten to screen I told Melissa that you know this script is going to be probably
at max 75 pages and she was a little bit kind of surprised because I think the
industry-standard at least is probably at least 90 95 98
or whatever you know but having done my previous you
know Indy short I mean India having done my previous indie feature where that
script was you know clocked in at I think 98 or 102 pages long and it was an
indie film we never got any of the we didn't shoot on 2% of the script and so
we really had to go into post-production in that film really struggling to repeat
the story together in a way that was coherent you know and so I knew that
this film would be really kind of short shooting schedule because of budget
because of schedule and so the intention was how do we go into post-production in
the editing room with as much of the script as possible right so that we can
really go in there with all the tools you know for the editor you know it's
it's it's it's a waste of time and a waste of kind of you know vision to have
a 98 page script and you go into a you know 10-day sheet schedule where you can
only shoot seven pages a day the math the math is gonna basically squeeze out
15 20 pages out of your script you know and so that's a good example is that we
didn't really write the script with the intention of going out there and
submitting it to contests or or going out there to try to raise money we
really this was really the blueprint for this kind of journey that we were gonna
go on it was the road map for this trip that we were gonna take and and so it
you know we really kind of nailed it down to a quote-unquote you know short
feature-length script by industry standard you know but the in process is
that we have a full-length feature film that's you know over hour and a half so
so you thought if I take out 20 pages that will save us X amount of dollars
because we won't be here I don't know how many you figure what two more days
or three more day or whatever how many days right because you know I mean I
mean I think you know what it comes down for filmmaking for indie filmmaking is
at some point it comes down to math you know if you are shooting ten days and
you are probably gonna be budgeted at seven eight pages a day right then that
means that you're probably gonna have a 70 80 page script and if you want to
have you know enough time for the actors to kind of play around a little bit if
you want to give enough time for your crew to give you a good kind of a you
know a set in terms of lighting if you want to have have a little broom for
making those mistakes on set then you know if you go into a production telling
your first ad that I need to shoot ten pages a day that's that's just really
kind of unfair for the production and you know what ends up happening is that
you go into post-production with 20% of your script missing you know and you
know it's really tough so if you hadn't done someone I used to know and I'm
sorry I don't know how much time went by between both projects but you probably
would have then gone in with the mindset of let's do industry standard absolutely
it's not 19 pages yeah absolutely you know you go in there not you go in
there with this it's purely artistic you go in there shorter they express
something and and you know everybody's saying kind of let's do it director
producer you do it and then the first day of shooting the crew and that cast
is getting to know each other and then you miss you know you miss I would say
one scene even if it's one scene and then you go
into the next day already behind and then you and the next day we're behind
it's the next thing you know at the end of the production schedule you've missed
you know a nice chunk of your movie so you know I I think that without that
experience without having gone through that I probably would have been like
yeah let's go out there with a full-length script and let's just do our
best you know and I think we probably would have
had some struggles you know in terms of narrative in post-production sure and
then there's that whole romantic notion of like hey I'm in LA and I'm on a set
right and this is cool and I mean I'm doing this but then time and money slip
away so were you always so disciplined was that there was just something that
was gained from this last production or were there other things that kind of
helped you become that on point because I'm sure that's not fun to have to be
that guy on set but you you essentially have to I mean I think I think it's it's
just having an idea of what you can accomplish and what you can't accomplish
you know you you I mean I was I was saying to you know some of our people in
the crew during pre-production was that at some point the artistic kind of you
know a journey becomes a kind of a business journey you know and you have
to I mean I literally was using words like we really have to manage assets and
liabilities you know great um and and a good example as you go into production
with a hundred page script and that's your asset you know and then you look at
the budget and you look at your schedule and then suddenly that that script
becomes a liability because you can't shoot the extra 15 pages and then the
crew is like oh my god we're behind well behind behind and that puts a certain
type of energy on this on the set so to answer your question you know I think I
think the the consensus between Melissa and I was always let's prepare this
product for success you know let's let's try to like create AB roadmap and we
wrote the movie for a location that we knew that we had access to you know in
the location changed several times during pre-production and I had to go
back in there and and and basically tinker a little bit and and so that's
another thing is is is I think you have to go in there with with as much as much
of information as you can I'm seeing still again seeking balance seeking you
know what one scale is tipping more and then you're you're you're rewriting to
fit the scene and it sounds like you did an excellent job of that yeah yeah yeah
and and we had an amazing we had amazing you know cinematographer Rouen O'Malley
I mean he came from New York I mean I literally met him you know we had phone
conversations and emails leading into the production but I literally met him
two days you know before filming you know I picked him up at LAX with Melissa
on Thursday we started shooting on Saturday and we did a tech Scout on
Friday and we had dinner and talked about kind of what we wanted to do and
so we had an amazing editor you know along the way Derek drew an amazing
sound designer a composer along the way we had so many people who were you know
getting paid you know far less than they deserve and and so I certainly was
seeking the balance of trying to make sure that all the pieces were in the
right places you know but at the same time manok comes down to the kind of the
group of people that you have to collaborate with so just going back real
quickly to what we're talking about earlier so you didn't enter it in any
screenplay competitions but did you try to take it up the like Hollywood food
chain with an agent or a manager you know no I know that Melissa sent the
script out you know during right before production or maybe pre-production just
to sort of you know see what the feedback was and we had various you know
kind of comments about the script and I was able to weigh what comments kind of
helped us and what didn't you know you know I think again going back to what we
talked about earlier about being a real realistic kind of roadmap for this you
know trip that we would be taking is really about that because a lot of
people came back with notes like well you know that that thing should really
be happening on page you know 12 not 7 and that day that thing really doesn't
make sense and you know and I think a lot of the comments like that are
well-meaning you know because I've written for many many years and I think
I understand all that stuff but you know the conversation that I had with Melissa
that we had to really negotiate was this project is really about a certain you
know location a certain budget a certain kind of vision with with in terms of
scheduling you know and so we really had to be be wise about what what feedback
we wanted to take and what feedback we wanted to dismiss so we didn't take it
up the Hollywood food chain so to speak because they just you know probably
wouldn't be interested because there are no car chases and there's no kind of you
know there's no aliens or anything like that you know it was really kind of a
very personal thing that we wanted to embark on okay
did you implement any changes into the script though when when they said this
is confusing here or maybe they didn't say that did the two of you go back and
say well if we're getting feedback from an outside source
maybe we're so close to it absolutely I mean I I think I think that you know we
we Melissa and I worked on outlining this story from the very beginning we
were really trying to talk about the characters talking about the
relationship talk about you know the plots the narrative and all that stuff
and themes and everything and then once we had a pretty fair idea of what story
we wanted to tell I went away and wrote the script because I was gonna end up
directing it and I felt that it was really important for me to be intimately
involved with with the nuts and bolts of it you know
and then once we got people kind of looking at the script we absolutely you
know took in advice and it's about it you know if that button is
not funny and a floor doesn't work or you know that is an extra seam that you
really really don't need we absolutely did that you know and also even you know
like like all films you know you essentially rewrite the script in
editing you know you're writing your final draft and editing and we had an
amazing editor on board who is really you know works on bigger budget movies
but he liked the story he believed in it and so you know me Melissa and Eric the
three of us in during editing really kind of tried to reshape you know the
story in some ways to to match what we wanted to do you know because there were
still scenes that we ended up not getting to you know even even with the
intention of shooting a short script we still missed scenes I'm sorry to
interrupt but why well because of budget because of time because of schedule you
know it's an ensemble film so you're working with a schedule of so many
different people and then there's the budget part of it which is like we're
running out of time that's gonna take an extra day so that put us in in I mean it
wasn't a horrible situation I think the movie became better but I do think that
you know all the feedback that you take you know you have to take it from the
very beginning all the way to the end you know even in editing we went through
I don't know I must have been three four different cuts before we arrived at the
final cut and throughout the process you know we had a very private you know kind
of a screening for about ten people on the big screen
what are we invited people to come and watch the movie and we got you know we
did a kind of a QA feedback you know we gave him questionnaires and we said what
what movie what you know what part of the movie did you enjoy and what do you
think about when you're done watching this movie and and those questions and
the answers to those questions really helped us you know gauge
how far off we were about our movie going back to what you said earlier the
best solution or best answer usually wins in your opinion it's something like
that do you think a lot of people are that open I mean no I don't I don't
think so and I think I think I think even in some ways I missed a mark you
know because I do think that you I think art you have to have an ego in your
story you know I don't think the ego should get in the way but I do think
that you have to have an idea of what your personal conviction is you know
what your vision is so I think being mindful of it is is you know is I think
healthier then then a lot of people are you know I mean I like to believe that I
can always take a good note you know it doesn't always happen and I think that's
true for everyone who's working in this industry you know you have to walk that
line of what do you personally feel like is right and what the feedback is from
different people you know so it's it's a tough it's a tough thing to kind of
negotiate you know I think it's um I think it's a the context I think it yeah
I think you have to look at that in the context of where the person is you know
what are the persons coming from you know you know I'm coming from another
project that's very similar so I have a certain perspective and someone else is
coming from something else and so you have to measure all of that you know
yeah and have a filter in terms of like what is actually constructive criticism
and what is someone just biessing me and what is somebody trying to squash me
right and that's a tough thing because I think in LA or anything creative there's
all those wrapping at you right right so and I think anybody who doesn't creative
has a fairly strong ego but then you can't be a mouse either you can't just
be like oh really ok let me change that right you know I
you have to fight back a little bit yeah yeah absolutely absolutely yeah let's go
back to the writing process with you and Melissa so what was going on in your
life when you started coming up with ideas for all I want I know it's her
ideas for the story initially right yeah yeah she she I was in the middle of
finishing a full-length play and I was in the middle of work shopping that play
because there was a story in that that I wanted to work out you know was doing
that and so you know when she first approached me my mind was really in in
in another story in terms of you know my writing you know and as an actor I
really was kind of taking myself out of the things a little bit because I just
first of whatever reason just gotten kind of disenchanted with with the
process of of an actor's life you know so I started really was writing
something to produce and direct and when she approached me there was something
about the story that you know both both Melissa and I are big fans of ensemble
movies and so that was our initial kind of connection were fans of ensemble
films and I also think that the theme of what we're trying to talk about in this
movie is a really important theme for me and for her this idea of you know people
in the modern American city right now I feel like at least certainly in Los
Angeles you know there's this kind of undercurrent of stress and anxiety
absolutely and depression that people don't talk about you see it though yeah
feeling it you feel it you bump up against it yeah and I'm not necessarily
talking about clinical disorders of anxiety or depression or things like
that I'm talking about the garden-variety kind of
you know garden-variety kind of weight of anxiety of stress of depression and
that is for me it feels like is a very uh thought about you know area of modern
life you know people who are trying to figure out what kind of jobs you know
they want to have um do they want to switch careers do they want to get
married and have kids do they are they happy with their partner with with their
you know families and I think fanatically that was something that we
both wanted to kind of you know pull apart and examine and I think that's the
wonderful thing about this film is that it's got amazing performances you know
across the board there's amazing technical kind of you know prowess in
terms of cinematography and editing and composition I'm certainly proud of my
work as director and Melissa and I are very proud of it as producing partners
and someone who can have collaborated to make the script happen but thematically
I think it's an interesting thing to talk about for the audience that we
don't already talk about right now right I know there is a taboo because
people want to just make it no nobody wants to get too heavy about anything
but I sense it and living in LA as long as I have I've seen the change and I
don't know if it's just because it's busier here but on a side note and we
can take this out if you if you don't want to talk about it but where you live
and I won't say where it is but it's removed in the Hollywood Hills well it
will it's removed from Hollywood and you have a lovely place here by the way and
I can see why you would want to be here because it's not part of the industry
but you are so creative and you do produce things you don't just talk about
them you have a body of work why choose someplace that's not in the
heart of the industry well it was initially by choice you know it was it
was based on so many different factors in terms of
you want to put yourself what do you want to make your nest per say a lot
often times when you don't have all the resources that you want to have you know
but I think as a result of all these different factors forcing me to make a
decision I'm able to kind of have a home that feels a little bit kind of you know
on the outskirts of the hub of you know Hollywood and I think that gives me a
certain sense of I don't know whether its distance or peace from it or
whatever you know having having some quiet time you know to to work on
whatever you want to work on so so you don't feel that pull to be in sort of
the hub where there's all this no no no I mean not anymore I think when I first
moved down to LA was really important for me to kind of be surrounded by you
know where everything is happening you know and that was exciting for many
years and I think now it's kind of nice to sort of like be around that have
access to that but then also be a way you know have the ability to kind of
like tuck yourself away and and then not be surrounded by that are you more
creative in the daytime or a nighttime definitely in the daytime yeah I think
so I'm more of a morning morning person and I think that's I don't know whether
Melissa has ever complained about it I don't think so but every time we would
have meetings I would always be like let's do it 8:00 in the morning you know
and she was like yeah sure you know I think that's also kind of interesting
too because you know I'm as a side note I'm collaborating on a project with
someone else who's a night person you know and and and that's like it in some
interesting ways that's kind of caused some you know friction because I'm like
you know after 8:00 at 8:00 p.m. you know my mind sort of just relaxes and it
starts to think about other things you know and
I kind of want to eat and I kind of want to watch a movie I kind of want to just
you know maybe go to the gym and and do nothing you know and during the day I'm
really productive and and for for this other person it's the opposite
interesting yeah I don't know what it would be interesting to take a tally to
see you know where people are are they morning or they night person
you know and also their collaborators are they are they the same or opposite
what about you are you a morning creative person or you I would say I get
much more done after a cup of coffee and in the morning and then past a certain
point you just I'm just done and I I don't nothing is worse than being behind
a computer when it's like 2:00 a.m. right and I can't see straight and I
don't that's not where I'm my best self lies right so I I get that but I know
there's some people that come alive at night yeah and I just think we're just
hardwired differently and yeah that there's no right way I mean you hear
these entrepreneurs that get up at like 4:45 and they take a cold shower and
there was ready and they're doing their you know wheatgrass smoothie and that's
great I don't think I can do 4:45 but everybody has their own process but then
there's some people that fool themselves and that's the trick I worry about I I
think I I definitely think that that that the footnote to that question is is
really like you know when when do your inspirations kind of come and for me
they come all over the place and any time but oddly it comes at night you
know it comes a night often as well I just think that you let it sit you know
inspiration comes to you ideas you know come to you and you sort of let it let
it sit around in your head you know and and you can't really actively do
anything about he's for me I you know I just sort of let it sit and then I will
actually try to you know execute on an idea during the day you know did she
grow up in the big city I grew up in the suburbs of the San Francisco Bay Area
you know I mean worked and played in the city but it was suburbia you know but
now LA you know I mean I mean LA is unique in some ways you know in a sense
that there's so many kind of like ambitious people coming here to do what
seems to me like an impossible kind of task of making your living as an artist
you know and so I think maybe with that maybe with you know where the country is
or whatever you know or expectations or all these kinds of different things
cause anxiety in the city you know cause anxiety in people who are kind of
expected to get married or expected to make a certain amount of money in their
jobs are expected to do certain things and and and how that bumps up against
you know what they are able to do I think the money part yeah is this a huge
factor in the city yeah being able to afford you know where to live and it's
tough you know you know I mean it's it's it's it's a
really kind of and which is why I think you know for me I wanted to really kind
of explore that in this movie because this movie is very much about friendship
it's about family it's about love modern love and life and all those kinds of
things and there's a lot of humor in this story there's a lot of fun moments
in the story that I think the audience can really kind of like enjoy they can
see themselves and their friends and their family
in the characters in this movie but I think at the same time it also starts a
conversation about that you know about anxiety so let's pretend this is the
moment that you've just finished writing all I want you just finish the script
and now it's time for you to begin marketing and and pitching it hmm
who are you calling and how are you setting up these meetings this is before
the movies made mm-hmm you know I think this is your script
right right I think I think this film taps into a certain audience who's
really interested in kind of almost foreign cinema you know the the ideas
that happen in this movie are almost I mean I mean you know I think I think I
think the the the lines of fracture you know in the relationships you know and
the lives of people in the story are are are kind of micro fractures you know but
those micro fractures you know have a big effect on on the world of these
people and so I think I think I would probably be interested in talking to
someone who's interested in in foreign cinema interested in in kind of indie
filmmaking the kind that doesn't you know depend on
you know these kinds of you know garden-variety kind of plot points about
you know there is a car crash here and there is a gun shot here you know which
all have very important value in in different kinds of films but I think in
this film it's really nuanced you know I think I think there's a lot of subtext
there's a lot of nuance so I would be talking to people who are
who are interested in those kinds of films so do you ever do cold calling
because you do you strike me as the type that you're not intimidated
you're not like a blustering like sales person but you you just open and you
kind of perceive the world that way too so you're not really intimidated I'm
putting on a really really good thing okay I don't know I'm just going back to
the scales I hate to bring it back to that but yeah yeah it seems like you you
don't you're not too shy but you're not too much of like this hardcore salesman
so if you were going to pitch it how would you approach you know it's hard
because the the the kind of the the DNA of this movie was not that the DNA of
this movie was very much we hadn't we had a cast kind of in mind we had a
location in mind and and it was really kind of writing for the resources that
we had you know and trying to make that story as compelling as as kind of
thematically interesting as possible you know but to answer your question I think
you know I think we would have to we would have to what was the question
again oh well look this role play so let's
suppose you meet with me and you don't really know me that well but you're
gonna pitch me this idea how are you gonna pitch me to read this screenplay
you know I I don't know where you're meeting me right I think I think I would
I again I think I would you know really really talk about I think I would really
you know ask him the question what are people dealing with every day that we
don't talk about you know what and what and what are people not what are the
secrets that people are not sharing that impact the decisions that they make
let's make a film about those secrets let's make a film about those ideas that
people have that they don't share let's make a film about those emotions that
people experience all throughout the day that they're too afraid to kind of
explore you know this movie is not necessarily in a traditional sense a
plot driven movie although you know the plot is certainly kind of a driving
force just as the character is but this story is really kind of driven by all
these different characters experiencing something similar for whatever reason
you know and I think and I think if if you as a producer is interested in kind
of exploring that theme you know I think you would be interested you know because
I think honestly you know I'm not sure that this film would be done by the
studio's unless it were attached to a bunch of famous faces I'm thinking of
crash Wednesday so crash was great because you saw these people that you
had a stereotype so right vision of what they must be like and then when you
uncovered stuff behind the scene right you saw that you know once their mask
was off absolutely they were just fragile and and going through all sorts
of thing right and it explained their behavior right right
yeah so and I think I think I maybe crash is an amazing you know story it
obviously was you know very critically acclaimed and but I'm not sure that
crash would maybe get the kind of you know traction that it had without you
know a famous cast you know I think that's the really frustrating thing
about the landscape of filmmaking today is that how many stories are not being
explored how many storytellers out there are not able to really kind of
bring interesting ideas to fruition because the market says well we don't
have we're not interested in that there's no audience for that there's an
audience for that I mean you know I mean the fast and furious kind of like
franchise is taking over the box office and and and movies like that have have a
lot of entertainment value but I think it might also scare away investors from
you know more personal movies like all I want you know movies that are some ways
foreign in in in in tone and texture do you think when we go to the movies we
want to know this is so-and-so actress this is so-and-so actor I know what
they're gonna deliver me you know I I know they're gonna have their mail right
scene and I'm gonna love it I have it every movie I'm you know I'm not great
I'm not great at kind of understanding how to market a film the way a lot of
kind of genius marketers are you know like in terms of let's hit the four
quadrants and let's really kind of tap into that kind of audience and those are
the things that I understand in an intellectual way but that's that's not
how I kind of think about stories emotionally so you know recently I mean
like I mean a great movie that happened during the Oscar campaign was the lion
you know absolutely loved it that movie was amazing
and I think part of the reason why I really enjoyed you know Nicole Kidman's
performance as an example was that she was surrounded by number one really
amazing actors and performers but also they were not quote-unquote famous right
and so you naturally believed her context you believed that she was in a
world of quote unquote real people you know and I think that movie worked in so
many ways but I think I've had so many people say oh I love Nicole's you know
performance in that and I said I love that too and I think one of the reasons
aside from masterful filmmaking is that you never
had to as an audience jump over that kind of obstacle of she's famous and I
don't believe that she's you know struggling I don't believe that she's
broke I don't believe that she's XY and Z you know she's surrounded by people
who are very kind of you know not famous and and and and not movie stars so for
me as an audience I I gravitate towards movies like that and so does Melissa you
know Melissa and I that's one of the things that we kind of you know really
connected to was was but we're both fans of kind of those kinds of films so I
think you know I'm not sure that I'm the best person to ask about that because
there are people who say like now films with no famous people don't get made I
don't know from just being here for like the last hour so I get the sense that
you're very disciplined maybe that's the wrong assumption but you seem very
disciplined to me do you ever procrastinate and I'm sure
you do but if so what are some of the things you catch yourself doing that
you're like oh you know what I'm procrastinating this isn't real research
this isn't working and how do you combat that well I think social media is
certainly kind of you know such a you know big part of our daily lives today
so for me is managing that you know trying to be you know connected to it in
the sense that you can communicate with people but not you know let it steal all
your hours away you know for me that that's kind of a big thing time
management you know for me you know is is kind of like a lot of artists and
storytellers out there working in Los Angeles there's so many people out there
who are talented and who are have great ideas but they're you know they've got
their survival job you know they've got auditions so they've got you
know families and they've got dogs to walk and kids to care for you know and
and so all those things are not excuses they are real parts of people's lives
you know and I think that's the thing that I've had to try to explain to my my
family and friends about the work that I do the work that a lot of my friends do
the work that a lot of the people that you know do you know people say well how
do you deal with the rejections and I said well I can deal with the rejections
that's just part of it you know but it's really at the time
management you know trying to figure out which meetings are important to take and
you know which jobs that you have to kind of turn down because it's not
inspiring or whatever you know so social media is a big thing that gets in the
way having to pay rent is a big thing that gets in the way you know having to
find money to do grocery shopping is to get you know you know all the things
that kind of get in the way for for everybody you know but I think this
business is especially kind of unique in a sense that you have to kind of go out
there and create your own path you know which is what Melissa has done and I
think I'm so proud of her is that she is a talented actress and she's you know
been around and but there was something about that kind
of complacency that she just was not happy with and I think and that's that's
what I think another reason why we connected I know you wrote for film
courage calm in 2011 I think was it for night dream blues right might have been
for that and I know that that got a lot of hits it did very well and I think
part of it was - you were very open about a lot of things and one of the
things you said and I'm paraphrasing here is that you would go after these
little bit parts with a lot of zeal and and zest and really go after things and
then you realize you were sending the message to yourself that you weren't
worth more or maybe I'm reading too much into it but that you decided you really
wanted to step it up because in terms of going after bigger things because you
were sending the message to yourself the universe that I'm only worth these
little bit things right right yeah and I think that's an interesting topic
because you know III wrote about that from the perspective of being a minority
actor you know where parts are not kind of coming down to me as often and when
they do they're not as interesting and something that we wanted to attack in
all I want the feature film is that Melissa you know as a woman you know how
often in even in today is kind of like you know landscape of filmmaking you
know to have a strong female protagonist is unfortunately still rare you know and
so that was something that she was up against you know and so we connected on
that as well and so I think part of the reason why she wanted to kind of embark
on this journey was because as a female actress a storyteller she was not kind
of getting access to the kind of stories that she felt she was really interested
in telling you know oftentimes the female role is kind of just you know the
girlfriend who is upset at the main character
you know blah blah blah and she wanted more than that and and I think that was
something that you know that we talked about during this film which was really
kind of making this film really have strong female characters and so this
film is special in the sense that it's got a strong in Samba l-- across the
board but it's got a really kind of an interesting a female kind of energy in a
sense that there is this you know there is the storyline about all these
different female characters that I think is really prominent that I really enjoy
what about for you though when you made that decision whether it was 2011 or
whenever where you said you know what I want to only have a certain standard for
myself and it's not and I'm putting words in your mouth right but so please
stop me it's not that you feel maybe that you're better than that but that
you want more right way personally emotionally career what all these things
yeah how was that when you would maybe let's say you I don't know how you
choose your roles or how you choose what you want to write but that you would use
this test and say I don't know if that's the level I want to be at how did you
start deciphering that aside from write this project I mean like just in general
because obviously that led to this project right right I think it's an
ongoing kind of process I don't think it happens overnight you know I think there
are a lot of moments where you for me there were a lot of moments where I knew
what I didn't want knew what I wanted and then there's this kind of you know
part of this phase of negotiating that you know you know I mean if I want to
write that you got to go through all the work of writing the script and then you
got to go through all the work of raising money and then there's all these
kind of voices in your head that say no no no no no just just that's too much
work you know and so there is definitely that phase and then you know after I
don't know how long and then you start to for me I started writing in theatres
and so the journey was very long you know I started
writing in 2004 you know and I've written you know several plays that's
been produced and and and so my kind of quote unquote playground of figuring out
my my voice my instrument started in the theater you know and then and then went
through short films and feature films and and so I think I think you know
after you've gone on so many auditions for one line you know for a character
that that might be cut out during editing you start to kind of lose
interest because you have a bigger story that you want to tell you know so I
don't know I think it happened over years you know happened over years of
realizing that I wanted to take you know more control over the stories that I was
involved in West when you first start writing a stage play or a screenplay
even for a short or feature is there a structure that you follow do you start
outlining what's your process let's suppose you have an idea you have a
story you want to tell what are some of the things that you first do in the
beginning um for me I let it sit for a while you know I let it sit for a while
and I I tend to what I've learned for me over the years for my own personal kind
of instrument is that when I first started I would get excited about an
idea and I would tell everyone about it I would call my my brother I would tell
my friend I would tell I would call you and tell you I would call him and tell
you know and then because because you're excited about it and I think that's a
good energy to have when you have a story to tell but what I do now is that
I don't tell anyone about it and I think that's important for me because I think
you wanna it's almost like a boxer you want to get into the ring with as much
energy as possible so that when the bell rings you're coming out you know
swinging and and what I discovered over the years
is that when you spend all your energy telling people about it and then you get
in front of the computer you have no energy you're done telling people about
it right so for me I keep it all bagged up I get excited about it and I talk to
myself about it and I think about it a whole lot and I get it to the point
where it's about for me it's about 70% done I never want to get to the point
100% done because you want to allow for some room for inspiration and changes so
I get into it for me I get it to the point where it's about 70% figured out
and then there's all this kind of energy kind of boiling and then I wake up
really early in the morning have my coffee and I just sort of like spend all
that energy getting it out onto the page and then it's on the page and then you
have a little bit of you know kind of security and then you can maybe tell
people about one scene or whatever but you know I I think it's good to keep the
energy wrapped up that's interesting because I think there's I think there's
there's a lot of people here that don't when they first come here and I'm just
wondering was there a turning point was there like something that happened where
you said I think trial and error I think I think I think like for everybody and I
you know what works for me may not work for other people I'm a morning person
like the right during the day I know what my habits are when I get into a
writing block you know when I get into a writing block I I do I almost always go
hiking by myself interesting I almost always go and watch movies by myself and
you know and again other people have different things you know and for me
I've gotten to know my kind of instrument over the years I got to know
how I like to work and how I like to solve problems you know so for me not
telling people about the story works
how do you know you're in a block I know that sounds like a really strange
question because it sounds like it'd be so obvious but maybe you're not in a
block maybe you're just like tired how do you know that you're not tired or
something else isn't going on but it's an actual block with the story that's a
really good question I do think that sometimes you you get tired I think for
me if it's this sounds really kind of weird but and I'm sure a lot of the
writers who might be watching this might understand because it's such an esoteric
kind of a write early you know bullshit but I'm really good at that you know but
but I think I think I think if the writer is too much in the driver's seat
that's a bad thing I think at some point the story has a
life of its own and I think in some ways a writer has to sort of surrender to you
know the to the story to the characters you know I think I mean you know some
some of the work I mean I mean you know I wrote this really successful play in
you know it was produced in 2012 and you know it was really well received and I'm
proud of incredibly proud of it that script came out of me like in two weeks
you know Mom and the idea came to me like 3:00 in the morning you know in a
flash and so there's something kind of spiritual and and and metaphysical about
that that I try not to answer and figure out you know yeah you know so I so I
think when you start to get too formulaic when you start to try to like
shoehorn too many things together when you feel yourself like bullshitting
and you know it's weird I mean it's it's a fine line of being authentic and
a formulaic being inspired and being disciplined those are really kind of
weird kind of intersections so in other words it sounds like you don't really
all want to overthink it too much and have like a name for the process you
just know it's instinctual yeah I try to it's a balance it's a balance we keep on
going back to the word balance it's a balance you know because I I tend to be
very heady at times but you know you don't want to go overboard which I don't
think is a bad thing because it keeps you on track you know because if you go
too far out you might be too much of a dreamer and all these ideas are there
and you're telling everybody but nothing's happening
right whereas how you talked about earlier when you knew you just had like
no 90 pages isn't gonna work it's got to be 75 because right it's gonna call you
know I mean that's yeah that sounds like it's working now I think I think all I
want the project was again you know unique because it's a collaborative
project with another person Melissa who's you know very personally tied to
the story in terms of her you know heartstrings you know and and and so you
know I didn't have the ability to make all the decisions you know in a vacuum
you know for better or worse you know we had to really have conversations about
you know character and plot all along the way which is you know different from
you know previous projects in the sense that I kind of wrote it on my own
and I I kind of wrote it on my own and I kind of had my idea of what I wanted to
accomplish so yeah how do you feel on those days when you have no time to work
on your writing I get really depressed I get depressed I
get self-defeating you know I've always believed in some weird way that that
that I'm you know the parable about the tortoise and the hare kind of a thing
you know I feel like I'm like the tortoise kind of and so I have a kind of
really really strong and present work ethic that sometimes gets really
annoying you know so I have a really bad guilty kind of conscience about not
working so there are certainly days where I'm not doing any writing or not
doing any kind of you know work shopping and and it's frustrating because you
feel like you haven't been productive but I think going back to a bigger kind
of frame I think those moments are important you know when I do experience
writer's block and I go and go for a hike and zone out and I spend a day at
the beach or I'm watching a movie or something I think a lot of good can come
from that you know gives you perspective and distance from the project a little
bit and I also think that if you're not writing you know either because there's
something wrong with the script with a story or that something else is supposed
to happen that you have to tend to whether it's life things or whether it's
whatever so I try not to beat myself up too much about it but but I can be very
hard on myself for sure really that's interesting I see that you would be more
easy on yourself you know I mean what we are I think in this business so many of
us were we're not treated as business owners we're not treated as
entrepreneurs we're treated as struggling artists right but we are
business owners right we each are running our own business with limited
staff with you know high overhead with trying to figure out how to make our
product different from our competitors and we're all struggling to find funding
right and so we have to kind of wear that hat with a little more pride you
know we are business owners we're entrepreneurs and so
it's it's it's it's it is tough when you are running your own business and you
feel like you know you're not going to work on that one day and you feel like
no know what's going on so you know I think it's I think it's I think it's
tough when I feel like I'm not being productive hmm do you do you recognize
that when you're in the moment of it like let's suppose you have a week
coming up where you're really not gonna have time to work on your own stuff yeah
and you know that and you're like okay I'm gonna just have to bite the bullet
and do what I have to do but do you do you start to recognize it in yourself
like oh gosh you know what it is it's because I'm not working on my creative
stuff yeah you know I've read a lot of kind of blogs and watched a lot of you
interviews about other writers who either have the luxury to write every
single day you know because they're they're being paid to write a certain
script or that's how they work but and III think for me I'm not sure that I'm
the kind of writer who writes every day you know maybe I need to be a little bit
better about that I'm not sure but I try to be mindful of what is inspiring to me
at the moment you know and letting that energy build up you know so that I'm not
just sitting at a computer like staring at a blank page you know for me I think
sometimes it's important to stare at a blank page and other times it's really
important to just kind of like let that energy build up and build up and build
up so that you have a lot to say you know so that you have a lot to say and a
lot to express and and you can put it on the page and I think that's important
too how do you keep a story from being boring
oh geez I'm not sure that I'm the one that asked you know because I was
watching someone's movie the other day and I was just so inspired by this movie
and that happens a lot I'll watch some friends film or some indie film or some
foreign film and I'm just like my god that that is amazing
and I'll watch that and I'll think about my own work or I'll think about stuff
that I've worked on and I think that's so boring so I don't know I think that
when you have so much kind of when you're so close to a project you know I
think you lose perspective and I don't know I mean it's hard to say because
sometimes I do feel like the script I'm working on is boring and I'll need
someone to read it and be like this is really really interesting you know I
recently talked to with a friend who's interested in in kind of you know
workshopping a play that I did years ago potentially adapting into a movie he's
you know wants to really kind of help me raise money for it and and I was like
wow I'm not sure that's interesting anymore and he was like are you are you
kidding me it's really interesting so sometimes you need that perspective from
someone you know to say this is what is good about it this is what's not good
about it so I'm you know I don't know if keeping things boring and not boring is
the best job for me to do I think you know because it's so subjective yeah I
mean I can see how let's say take lion movie which we both love right from last
year and and we would look at and say there was probably no moment in the
story that was boring to us right and so it's hard to like work on our own stuff
when we have that as our sort of write that we're comparing our work to write
that movie also part of you know it's hard when you're competing with a true
story that is unbelievable unbelievable right that's
that's tough you know it's always that's always the case when you're when you're
kind of competing with that you know so I think if someone wrote that script and
and asked the studio to make it they would be like this is crazy this is
impossible this sounds really far-fetched you know
but but I think that's a true story so it's tough but you know I don't know I
mean movies that make a lot of money in the box office aren't always movies that
are interesting to me no you know they make a lot of money and they hit the
right plot points on the right pages but for me sometimes they're boring you know
so I think I think that is somewhat subjective you know whereas maybe an
arthouse film would there be more room for a character to have like some
extreme highs and lows what do you think it is because it seems like with a lot
of the studio films lately right it's maybe they keep it so light maybe I'm
wrong I don't yeah I'll see a lot of studio films so what do you think it is
that that doesn't keep your attention whereas maybe these art house films
these foreign films that you love right Ingmar Bergman so somebody that just
really like wow you don't even have to understand what they're saying right to
be like so captivated by that scene you know you know I also think it's I think
a film really needs an audience you know I think I think I think there's the
process of the filmmaker making the film you know and then I think there is the
and then that there's the second part where the audience is experiencing the
phone you know and so if someone makes a incredibly sad movie that is incredibly
difficult to market and then it plays in a theater and there's that one person
who's going through an incredibly sad day and he walks into the theater on a
rainy day one ticket and watches that movie in a
dark Theater and is profoundly impacted by that film right there is an
interesting value in that even if that film you know I don't know is having a
hard time getting you know making money so I don't know I think I think I think
I I think what I sense is that there should be a lot of kind a lot of
different kinds of films out there different storytellers different kind of
budgets and different kinds of approaches to storytelling because I
think that's what it should be there are different kinds of people there are
different kinds of moods there are different kinds of kind of sensibilities
and I just hope that you know the Hollywood kind of like market is not
steering us towards you know one flavor for everybody you know and no room for
any other flavors you know I think that's I think that's that's the ideal
the ideal is that you can walk into a marketplace and there's like 15 20
different flavors there maybe isn't one that's making 700 billion dollars but
there's different kinds of flavors and you can kind of have access to all of
them what is it that makes a character born to you I think a character with no
inner life I think is boring you know I think if I think if for me I think if
the character is having some inner life if that makes sense you know whether
that inner life is subtext or whether that inner life is in conflict with his
public life or her public life you know that's interesting to me you know
I don't know I think it really depends on the kind of story it is and you know
you know every I guess you know to use a comparison to like making a meal I think
every meal is different you know every meal demands different kind of
ingredient you know and so I certainly don't feel like I have all the answers
by any means you know I mean for me I'm just trying to figure things out on my
own and I'm trying to figure things out on my own based on my own kind of
sensibilities and my own you know way of writing but I think I think having some
inner life you know is what about you I'm even thinking of let's suppose a
movie that's light and fluffy like Legally Blonde it was still interesting
her character right is still you want to see her she doesn't seem to get easily
you know taken aback by all sort of these jobs that are thrown her way right
and you're kind of like wow that's really interesting and she keeps being
light and bubbly and happy right most people would be like giving these people
the middle finger after Wow you know but and so you're kind of like wow I find
her interesting you know and that's that's a light you know fun film but
there's kind of a message behind it but still it's a studio sure where it wasn't
boring right interesting enough to keep my attention and I mean that's I mean
it's incredibly crafted screenplay mm-hmm you know I mean on a plot level
in terms of where things happen in terms of you know when you're talking about
the traditional you know having the first kind of like pre life and how that
changes and what what is inciting you know incident you know all that stuff
but you know you look at her character I mean she's battling against kind of
expectations that people have you know with who she
might be and and what her kind of inner life might be so I think for me you know
that I mean there are plot driven stories and they're all character-driven
stories and you know I think they'd be certainly kind of like overlap and in a
lot of areas but but generally speaking if you're talking about a character from
me if there's something about that character that tells me that either that
person isn't telling everything about his life or her life or there's
something about that person that what he or she is doing you know in front of
people is different from what they're doing behind the scenes for me that's
interesting you said earlier that you're hard on yourself do you give yourself
permission to write badly at first you know there's that thing where just like
get it all out on page the first draft it's gonna be horrible but you have to
get that in place or do you do you find yourself really censoring yourself
I have tried you know for me my own journey right now as a writer I have
tried to be more and more imperfect as I've grown as a writer you know I've
tried to be better at letting things go and and and and I'm not sure whether
that's a maturing process as a writer or whether that's simply specific to like
my own kind of like journey you know I've recently been really kind of
inspired by films that seem imperfect in a lot of ways and that's kind of like
inspired me in some ways what's imperfect about them the characters or
the the actual story I think they're imperfect in
in the traditional sense of like you know not all the sound is pretty not all
the picture is pretty you know some things are not you know you can tell
that they're lacking and budget or whatever but it's got so much heart so
much heart you know so I don't know you know I mean some films kind of find that
in editing you know it's really kind of a strange filmmaking is kind of a
strange thing in the sense that what the audience sees and what the audience
either admires or does not like some of those are happy accidents and some of
those you know you might find a shot in the movie that's really inspiring and
you're like you know that's genius how did that come about and like well that
happened by accident you know or vice versa you know you might have something
in there that's that's you know amazing and it doesn't work and they spent you
know you know a lot of time on so it's it's really kind of a strange thing
because you know I don't know I mean intention and the the producer or the
filmmakers intention you know that relationship with with with the final
product I don't know it's kind of a strange thing yeah I can think of a few
films where I've seen the boom mic write a film and I still love it yeah or the
ending is very unclear right but it actually keeps me right oh wait but what
if I wonder how that turned out right the movie that came out four years ago
that was shot on the iPhone tangerine you know I mean I mean I don't know what
the reception was of that movie I saw that movie and I was inspired by that
movie simply because you realize that how accessible storytelling is in some
ways you know wow you know but at the same time you can't make an iPhone movie
for every single script I mean it works for a certain type of story you know it
works it worked for that story because the story was so kind of like gritty and
mediate and accessible so it worked for that you know so what was the best piece
of advice on writing you've ever received gosh I think there's been a lot
over the years or whatever you know I
think trusting your actors you know I think is really really kind of important
you know as a writer trusting the actor's instincts about you know either
the line or about the moment or about any subtext I think it's really
important sorry so that's great let sorry to interrupt so so when you said
again the best answer wins best idea so if an actor has a suggestion and it's
not on the script but it's set in in the moment yeah sometimes you're like you
know what I like that let's go with that you know I think for me you know this
gets into a whole kind of like a discussion but for me I think I think
there are reliable writers and unreliable writers you know I think I
think as an actor when you pick up a script from a writer that you don't know
there are ways of telling you know whether that writer is reliable and if
that right for me if that writer is reliable then you kind of put your
instincts you know to the side and follow this writer is kind of like map
and see where it leads and then you know along the way you might have some
questions or whatever and then you might get a script where the writer is clearly
not reliable and so you have to kind of measure the
essence of the story measure the essence of the writers intentions and keep your
instincts close to you so that you can kind of let your instincts guide you a
little bit you know so you know that's that's the way that I kind of approach
things as actor so as a writer I would hope that
most actors who read my scripts can tell that I'm a reliable writer and so I
think that buys you a little bit of time in letting the actor kind of follow you
on your journey and trusting your instincts and then along the way you
know there might be some discussion about that scene doesn't work or where
is that line coming from and then you might you know be proven wrong and that
happens you know naturally I think over the years for me I think when I first
started writing I was really kind of specific about the world that I wanted
to create the scene that I wanted to create I wanted to kind of really dot
all the i's and cross all the t's and then I think as I've written more and
more as I've you know kind of grown as you know a storyteller I've kind of been
more comfortable with letting go of some of that stuff and and letting and
letting kind of like things get figured out you know during during the process
of either rehearsal or filming or whatever so trusting the actors a little
bit I think is good you know not spelling everything out I think is
important you know something that I've learned and I think I mean these are not
really advice kind of like comments that I've received but it's more things that
I've learned I don't know that makes sense but for me when I first started
writing I I had all these secrets that I wanted to keep and they were my secrets
about as the writer and I didn't really want to share it with the audience
and then you know and then I even the more I've written that you realized that
you have to share things with the audience that's the relationship you
have to be careful of what you share and you have to decide when you want to
share it but you have to share things with the audience otherwise they're not
interested they're not invested that are confused or whatever so I think trusting
the audience is right up there with trusting the actors you know is really
kind of like letting things go a little bit not spelling everything out and
hoping that you know that either the actors will do the rest of the work for
you or the audience will do the rest of the work for you I think that's I think
that's I think that's important you know what do you trust in the audience with
again figuring out the subtext or not needing to spell everything out you know
I think the the challenge with any kind of work of art I think is the the minute
you you begin the process of creating that that work of art or that product or
whatever you start to lose perspective you know and I think that is an inherent
part of the process but it's also something that that that you know we
have to be aware of as soon as you start going into the cave and the more you
walk toward this kind of finished product the deeper you are into this
cave and you start to like not know what you know what what works and what what
you know what doesn't work you know so I think
trusting the audience that something will work without having a spell
everything out I think it's probably a good thing that I've learned you know is
that because as you go into this cave you're getting further and further into
your own mind and so are you losing perspective as how other people will see
it yeah I think so because I think when you watch a movie you don't really know
the writers you know intention or or you don't really know you just sort of
you're on this journey and I think you know when you are with the story for a
long time and you're raising money for it and you're pitching this story to so
many different people and you're shooting it and you know do you want
you're just so close to the product you know you're so close to the story that
it you know some things you think matter don't and some things that you think
don't resonate actually have a really strong impact in the audience and and
and that's you know that's that's really kind of hard to figure out you know what
secrets do you think they want to know and why is it because they want to know
they're like you well what I what I meant
initially was just kind of plot secrets you know you know little things that you
think have kind of resonance or whatever you know like you know the very first
play that I wrote back in 2004 I love that play it had a lot of heart you know
and and it was really kind of like special in its own way but when I read
it now you know I see all these kinds of writer secrets you know I see all these
kinds of kind of really esoteric
things that matter to me as a writer but they didn't really matter to the plot
per se you know and they didn't really have you know an impact in the story you
know and so I think for that specific story as an example you know some of
those decisions kind of confused the audience you know in that in that
specific script you know so it's more about that but but yeah well they say
the writer reveals things about themselves even if the story is
embellished even if it's not a true story but they reveal who they are in
their character yeah you know I was listening to an
interview the other day he had the day on NPR and and it was with a writer I
can remember her name but she was talking about writing and and and and
what she said resonated with me you know because I think the person interviewing
her was like who are these people that you're writing and she said they're me
every single character is me and I think that's really true for me as well you
know I think even though I'm writing a different character per se whether they
are young or old or male female or whatever you know they are really kind
of me because number one I've said all the lines you know and when I write I
say all the lines out loud you know and so I said all the lines and I've thought
about all the different subtext and so it's really me you know it's it's sort
of my understanding of the world even if it's from a different perspective per se
you know so yeah I think I think whether an audience things that you're revealing
something about them I'm not sure but but you definitely get some view of the
person writing the story you know why do you think we need storytelling
well I think the conventional one conventional response would be that you
know we are watching ourselves you know on screen or on stage or way back in the
days of the cavemen and women we were just sort of watching ourselves by the
fire right I mean there's the entertainment value people want to be
entertained I think gosh it's hard to answer this
question without sounding somehow you know really kind of hokey and generic
you know but I think the truth is I think and it sounds horrible but I think
it's so that we don't feel so alone you know and I think it's just so that we
feel like what we are going through what we might think is unique to us because
of what we are going through family or living circumstances or whatever that
there's someone else out there feeling the same thing and so that somehow
through entertainment tells you that it's okay or that even if it's not okay
that what you were going through is not something you know that you were going
through because of who you are or because of something that you have done
you know I think there is something about that
you know and I think I think that's why you know I know that you and I have had
many conversations about proper representation on screen and I think
that effects a little bit too you know I think for more women to see themselves
on screen for you know people of color the season see themselves on screen or
on stage there is this kind of subliminal kind of you know affirmation
that what you are going through or people who
act like you or walk like you or look like you that they're out there that
they're also experiencing different these different things so I think
there's that I think for me for me personally it's beyond entertainment
it's for me personally it's really about this kind of connecting with other
people out there you know how is it to be in a theater I mean it seems like so
many of us watch phones now or scuse me a watch so many of us watch films now on
our phones or laptop or whatever but that actual going to the theater and not
knowing that people you're sitting around and you're watching somebody go
through something that is intensely personal right and maybe you feel like
you're the only one in the theater who can relate to it but you're also you can
feel the stranger across five rows is affected you just feel it right how is
that for you because you talk about if we do go to see these films that it's a
way of connecting and feeling that we're not so mm-hmm separate or different in
this world mm-hmm I think it's even more dramatic in some ways in theater because
like you said it's live you know I mean it really depends on the production but
but I think it's so immediate and live and like you said you see someone having
that discussion or that argument or that you know confession right in front of
you you know and and I think it's it's it's a I went to see my friends at play
in Denver about two weeks ago and you know it was a good theater and it was a
Friday night and it was packed with people who don't work in the theater
community you know they were just sort of on the way home from work and they
met up with a friend grab the beer and went to watch a play and there was
something so striking about that because I think in LA you know it's always a
struggle to of compete for an audience you know
whether it's film or theater you know and a lot of people who do go to watch
theater in LA a lot of Maher working in the industry
you know so they're supporting a friend or their you know kind of interested in
the season of a certain theatre company so I even think it's regional I think I
think I think the fact that I was in Denver and and it's not entertainment
capital in any way and they went to watch a play and it felt the experience
for me was so kind of oddly pure because they were not there to figure out how a
director works or figure out how you know a certain theatre company you know
does casting or you know things like that they were literally just out there
for an experience of kind of watching a piece of entertainment and then they
would go home and and and you know so it was really interesting and this
particular play I was I was you know watching the audience and they all
stayed for the Q&A they all had questions about the characters and so I
think that was a recent example of me kind of realizing how profound like
storytelling is you know and and certainly in theatre because you can
actually talk to the playwright or the actors you know I think there's
something about that immediate thing you know what film has impacted you the most
and why I mean to the point of where like you're still obsessing over the
film years later oh man well you know it always changes I think
different moods you know I think you and I talked about this before one of my
favorite films as an example is you me everyone we know right we talked about
this with Miranda July right that film was really good
but I mean I think I think you know if I were to list top top top films oh man
it's hard because I don't want to be tied down to any sort of like choice you
know American Beauty is one of my favorite films Wow
what was it about that film that just got you well I think you know bringing
back I think what I loved about that film obviously is is the the masterful
kind of you know storytelling you know it's very I don't want to use the word
polished because I think sometimes polished has a bad connotation but I
think it's it's got a really clear vision and I think you know it's great
but also it's got for me it's got you know I just kind of like inner life of
the character you know that was really interesting for me you know you clearly
see not just Kevin Spacey's character but everybody's gotten some sort of
internal life and I think that's really kind of interesting Godfather you know
part two is great you know because it's very epic and I also like directors who
kind of like have a wide frame and let actors kind of play I think that's
really exciting and I think that happened along with that film I mean
obviously there are really incredible like close-ups and and shots but you
know Francis Ford Coppola was really good with framing his shots in a kind of
like a photographic way that lets the audience decide what is interesting you
know and I saw that film and a really really kind of a young age so that was
written packed full um I could go on and on you know stand by me is really great
I love that film because of how it talks about innocence and the loss of
innocence and I think that I saw that movie as a kid and I think that was a
parallel in my life in some ways so going back to inner life what what is
that that's if we want to use American Beauty
as a case study what is that inner life that the right
showing the viewer you know I I don't know I don't know exactly in terms of
what their intentions were you know Sam Mendes you know but talking about
you know what we said earlier in a previous question about why do we tell
stories and so that we don't feel so alone per se right and I think that
movie in some ways is deliver is this idea that there is this outside shell of
a life that we call life you know you've got the lawn you've got the white fence
you've got the neighbors and you've got the car and you've got the nine-to-five
job per se right and then there's this inner life that we don't usually share
with people or there's this inner conflict about where we think we are in
our lives and and then the movie is essentially about all those kinds of
kind of private you know lives that we have that we would not have access to
outside in the streets right you can't walk around and see people's inner life
you know you just sort of see what be what is I think that movie does what
theater cannot do I think in some ways right and I think it does what maybe
even a lot of different mediums of art can't do I think film allows you to
bring the audience in a very kind of explicit way into the private lives of
people and I think I think it's possibly through that kind of examination that
the audience gets to see oh well I thought that same thing all right I've
said that same thing before or I've been I I felt that way before you know and I
think there's something about that that connects people you know to it I mean
you know when I go watch movies by myself and when I go watch movies with
a friend or friends I think it's a different experience you know I think I
think when I go watch movies by myself it's a more intimate personal kind of
connection and I like to go watch movies by myself because I like to have that
kind of connection with the story you know so yeah it is a different cuz I
think too with the friend you're making sure the friend is laughing at the same
part yeah it's not funny okay yeah great okay good we could both agree later but
when you're by yourself you don't need to
you're not pleasing anyone you're yeah I think I think when you go with friends
you know the the entertainment value of a movie has a lot is higher on the list
right cuz you get a popcorn and you go out there and you're on a
date or you're out there with celebrating something with friends when
you're going out there by yourself like you said you're choosing that movie
based on no one else's decision but yours right and you're like I want to
watch that actor or I want to watch that scene or bah bah bah bah and you're not
you it's really I mean I guess for that person I'm sure that person wants they
entertained but there's probably a real good chance that that person wants to
feel less alone in some ways you know possibly so I don't know maybe but then
I think there's some movies that they're really best that you see alone yeah
because you don't get the same it's not the same impact yeah yeah I I saw I mean
just as a random example cuz we're talking about I saw a lion by myself oh
wow and I was just bawling you know but I've seen a lot of movie I've seen a lot
of movies by myself and I think I think it's it's enjoyable how was that that
just sorry if I'm going too far with this but one after it because I remember
the film - and it was incredibly emotional when you lights came up and
you got a that awkward like going into the elevator or wherever you're going to
get your car you know what's interesting you say that it's interesting that you
like the movie so much because I have I have heard and I don't know if this is
this is not scientific at all but a lot of my
male friends have really enjoy the movie and at the same time I've also heard
some female friends who have not been as you know big fans of the movie and I
don't you know I mean I think I think I think the movie is obviously got
nominated it's a good movie technically it's a good movie but I also
think the movie for me I don't know for you but for me it was it's it reminded
me of my mother you know it's such a mother-son relationship in you know and
obviously it's right there in the script but do you did you feel that I mean what
did you think that you think about how did you how did you walk away from the
movie for me it was about someone trying to figure out where they came from and
essentially figure out who they were based on that
yeah and there were so many unanswered questions and so if you've ever had a
parent that wasn't around or some missing component like that for me I
tapped into that yes he became so obsessed and that's all he could think
about and looking at this map and trying to have these memories right and and
really essentially try to figure out who he was right if he could just get back
there or or make sense of these right so that's where it resonated for me that's
interest so I don't know if it was really more of a male-female thing right
in my sense I think was just anybody right has unanswered questions if
they're adopted right or if they have unanswered questions right out you know
where they came from right what happened in there early life
right to me that's why it got to me yeah it was it was one of those movies where
I you know you can't you can't be just like you know oh yeah hey how's it going
to the person next to you afterwards no no you needed a good five ten minutes so
like yeah you know no you have to kind of place yourself
focus in the movie because it deserves that attention for sure yeah and then
you add the music yeah just use everything everything everything across
the board and there's not a lot of movies that do that I mean there's
movies that are good and then there's movies that you don't forget right I
think that's one of those movies that for certain people right you just don't
forget that experience yeah for sure for sure yeah so do you remember kind of
coming out of the theater and and did you did you uh you know I mean I I
definitely felt a lot of the same things that you felt but in a more kind of a
primal way I've you know I felt the connection to my own mother you know my
my mother you know kind of sacrificed a lot and I always feel like I don't think
or enough I always feel like I don't show her enough kind of gratitude and
then it made me think about you know being lost and disconnected with her in
a very kind of metaphorical way you know even though you know she's six seven
hours away and I can call her anytime you know I want to but I still felt like
I was that character in some ways that who somehow got lost and forgot about
you know where he came from and forgot about you know the the parents sacrifice
you know so for me it resonated me you know resume and resonated with me in
that way as well so
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