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- Hello, Gatehouse insiders.
We are continuing our series across Australia
interviewing some of the best and inspiring lawyers
within the legal profession.
This episode we are taking a look at moving
out of private practise into community legal work,
the challenges and rewards that come with community work,
and how digital solutions are transforming
the legal profession.
I'm joined by my guest, Brendan,
who is the principal lawyer at Moonee Valley Legal Services
and the 2018 LIV Young Lawyers president.
And don't forget to subscribe
to the Gatehouse Legal Recruitment YouTube channel,
or you might miss out.
(upbeat music)
So tell me, what inspired you to practise law?
- Well, originally I actually started in biomedical science.
I had no intention of becoming a lawyer at all.
And it was only when I started looking at
intellectual property and biotech and things like that
that I started thinking, ah, okay,
well maybe I don't want to spend every day
pipetting one thing from a test tube into another test tube.
And intellectual property could be
a really interesting path to go down.
So originally, it was so that I could go
and continue working in the biomedical space,
but as a lawyer rather than any great desire,
at the beginning, at least, to become a lawyer
in and of itself.
- And how did you get your first legal job?
- So my first legal job was at the Footscray Community
Legal Centre, volunteering.
So I started off like lots of law students,
started off volunteering, and then ended up
as a seasonal clerk when I was with Russell Kennedy.
So that actually ended up as I got really lucky
and was one of the few that actually managed
to get a graduate placement with them
when I graduated from university, which was brilliant.
- So many law grads are struggling to get
a first opportunity, so yeah, very lucky.
- Yeah, well at the moment, for young lawyers,
it can be, it's as low as 17% of all graduates
are actually getting jobs in the legal profession,
and I think part of that is due to how law schools
are preparing their law students.
I think a big part of it, and something I didn't realise,
is that the bulk of people who graduate from law
aren't going to become lawyers.
They are going to end up in consultancy or in business,
and only 17% are actually going to become lawyers.
And there's fantastic skills that young lawyers get
from their law degrees that they're not taught
how to transfer them into other fields of practise.
- Tell us a little bit more about your,
I suppose your career today and how you've gotten
to your position now at Moonee Valley Legal Services.
- So as I said, I started off at the Footscray Community
Legal Centre as a volunteer.
When I was finishing my grad year at Russell Kennedy,
I was sure that I wanted to make a change,
but I wasn't sure what I wanted to do.
And as I was coming to the end of my grad programme,
I was looking at jobs in intellectual property
to try and leverage from my biomed background,
and I was looking at courses,
and I got really lucky, so I got into a course
at Stanford Graduate School of Business in California,
where I was able to go and do a short course
on business management and impact.
And it was that course that gave me the background
and the impetus that I needed to think,
okay, what can we do that is bigger impact?
What can we do with our law degrees
that will have a bigger impact beyond
whether it just be the one client
and think creatively or innovatively?
And timing was right, so when I got back from that,
they were looking for a lawyer at
a local community legal centre,
and I thought, yeah, this is where I'm need to start,
'cause this is where we can be encouraged
to think systemically and try and solve problems
for more than just the client in front of us,
and try and have that impact.
- And moving out of private practise
to community legal work, was there much of a transition?
Was it easy?
Was it hard?
Was it a tough decision to make?
- So it certainly wasn't a tough decision.
And looking back now, it was the best decision
I possibly could have made.
But I think there's actually a lot more similarities
between commercial practise and community lawyering
than people realise, and a lot of the skills
that we are taught as lawyers and throughout law school
and into grad programmes and into early in our careers
are incredibly transferable, not just
between private practise and community law,
but between legal practise and nonlegal practise,
whether that be consulting or the public sector
or anything like that.
- And in terms of community legal work,
I know we spoke about it briefly before,
there's obviously challenges and rewards
with community legal work.
Can you share some of the challenges and rewards
you face daily?
- So the biggest challenge is the clients.
Often the legal problems that we'll be dealing with
are reasonably straightforward, but the clients
can be incredibly complex.
So most of our clients either suffer from a mental illness.
We may need to use interpreters,
often interpreters who are speaking particular dialects,
so it can be very difficult to even find
the right interpreter that you need to use.
And then trying to find the solution
for their particular legal problem
can be incredibly difficult because it may not fit
their needs, even though it might be the legal solution
that you can provide with them.
So one of the biggest challenges, I think,
is the limitations of trying to combine
what is essentially a social service
into a legal framework, which can be really difficult.
But the biggest reward is that we get to think systemically.
We get to think big picture.
One of the things that you find in private practise
is that you're always just thinking,
how do I help this one client in front of me?
I need to solve their problem.
Whereas in community practise,
if you get a client that comes in
with something that raises a systemic issue
or a societal issue, we're encouraged and required
to actually think there and think, okay,
can we do something bigger?
Can we do advocacy?
Can we develop some sort of technological solution?
Do we need law reform?
How do we solve this problem so it doesn't happen
to somebody else?
And that, I think, is the most rewarding thing
with community legal practise.
- Now, speaking on technology, you've created two,
or you've been the co-founder of two online platforms.
Tell us a little bit more about those
and how it's helped society and the community
for the better.
- Sure, so the first one actually came out of
the RMIT Fastrack programme, and it's called FineFixer.
So the idea behind FineFixer is that it will help people
identify when they have a problem with fines,
help identify people who should get legal help,
and then identify those who can help themselves
and provide them with the tools that they need
to help themselves.
The second tool is called Online Will Kit,
and that is something I co-founded
with one of my friends from biomed
and who I went to law school with as well,
John Hurrigan, and we, that's developed
from the premise that everybody should be able
to afford legal services.
At the moment, there's 160,000 people each year
who are turned away from community legal centres
and millions of people who can't afford
traditional legal services, so Online Will Kit
is built on that premise that we believe we can use
technology to try and solve that access to justice gap.
- And how is the society taking that onboard?
Are they using it?
What's the feedback?
- So for FineFixer, we've had 20,000 users since August,
which is fantastic.
- [Interviewer] That's incredible.
- There's a huge need for tools like this out there,
and it's just a matter of using clever design
and finding the right market to try and enter
and try and use these tools.
There's some things that people don't want technology for,
but there are some things that technology can be
really useful, and the important part for people
is realising where those levers are.
- Anything else in the pipeline for development?
- So there's a really cool project we're working on
at the moment called Streamline Fines,
which tries to combine those two.
So we're trying to use technology and good design
to provide legal services to clients
while they're in an inpatient facility.
So using technology to make the relationship
between health providers and lawyers easier to manage,
but using on-site service delivery,
because that's what you need to do to deliver services
to the most vulnerable clients.
- Interesting.
When will that be released?
- So the pilot has started.
We're in the design phase now,
and we'll be on the ground at three health services
around Victoria in May.
It's really exciting.
- [Interviewer] That's not so far.
- Yeah, so that's in partnership with Victoria Legal Aid,
West Justice, and with Peninsular Community Legal Centre,
with funding from the Public Sector Innovation Fund.
- It's amazing how your role gives you so much,
allows you to be so innovative
and to actually implement things, which is pretty awesome.
- Yeah, well, as I say, that's one of the core benefits
of being able to work in community practise,
is it's not just something that you can do.
It's something that we should be encouraged to do.
- And you're the 2018 Young Lawyers president
for the Law Institute of Victoria.
What's on the agenda?
What's your goal for this year?
- So for this year, we've got three key pillars.
One is around the gender pay gap,
which still exists in the legal profession
and is something that we are desperate to try and address.
The second pillar for this year is around well-being
and the law, and trying to help our profession
move beyond simply talking about well-being
and starting to implement well-being solutions.
And the third pillar is around the future
of the legal profession, and how do we actually prepare
young lawyers to be legal professionals of the future.
Because at the moment, the legal profession
is under threat, and we need to think creatively.
We need to think innovatively about how we deliver
legal services, not just for free services
but also for fee-paying services.
- Where do you see the future of law going?
- Smaller services being provided very efficiently
and supported by technology, so not replaced
by technology, 'cause technology is just a tool,
and there are many elements of legal practise
that are uniquely human.
That idea of creative problem solving, of empathy,
of communication, of walking with your client
through their legal problem, that can't be replaced
by a computer.
But what we can do is augment that.
We can use technology to make it cheaper or easier
to deliver the mundane tasks and leave more time
for young lawyers and new lawyers and the future lawyers
to actually be delivering the job of a lawyer.
- And in terms of health and well-being for law firms
and lawyers, what programmes or what things
are you going to be implementing to make it more aware
in the profession?
- So what we would like to see happen
is a cultural change, the idea that it's not something
you can't talk about if you're struggling,
that it's not something that we're all expected
to be there from seven in the morning 'til nine at night,
and if you're not doing that then you're not doing
your job properly.
We need to start creating a cultural change
and creating just something that is valued
by the profession, that you are working
with well-being in mind.
Because at the moment, it's something
that people talk about, but it's not something that,
I think, that a lot of employers truly value.
And that's what needs to change.
- [Interviewer] And do you see any firms
doing it really well?
- I see a lot of the smaller and new law firms
doing it really well, offering proper flexible
working arrangements, thinking about what
actually needs to be delivered,
and I think that's where the change is gonna come from.
It's gonna come from pressure from below,
from the smaller firms that are truly living the idea
of well-being in law, rather than just talking about it.
- And for people in our audience that are thinking
of changing, say, from private practise
to community legal work, what's some advice you'd give them?
- Don't be afraid to take a risk.
Too much, in our profession, is risk-averse.
We're trained to think about what's gonna go wrong,
how do we provide this client with services
to prevent that bad thing from happening.
In our own careers, we need to be willing to take a risk.
We also need to be willing to take a risk
in the delivery of legal services, as well,
to find creative and innovative services.
And we also need to think about what's transferable.
So think about those human skills,
those things that you've practised as a lawyer,
that aren't necessarily about your specialist area
of law, because the specialist areas of law
can be taught, but those human skills,
they're the really difficult ones,
and they're the ones that are prized by employers.
So focus on how those can be transferred
to whatever profession you want to move into,
whether it's changing field of law
or a complete change to a different profession.
- How did you become so self-aware
of yourself and what you wanted to do?
- Being open, saying yes to opportunities.
So if somebody said, "Hey, would you like to
"go and volunteer at this service?"
Yeah, sure, I'll check it out.
Let's see what happens.
Or whether it be, "Would you like to go to this event
"and learn about blockchain or how tech can be used
"to solve legal problems?"
It's being open to those sort of ideas
and not being closed off and thinking, okay,
this is how I was taught to practise law.
This is the only way I practise law.
Being more open, saying yes to things.
(upbeat music)
- [Interviewer] And that's it.
Another episode of Gatehouse Insights draws to an end.
I'm off to continue with my quest to find
more inspiring lawyers.
Thank you for watching.
Thank you for recommending this video to your friends.
And as always, don't forget to subscribe
to the Gatehouse Legal Recruitment YouTube channel,
where I'll see you soon.
(upbeat music)
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