Welcome to a new episode of the "Box of Islam" show in its new outfit.
The first season of "Box of Islam" has amassed a great success and positive reviews
that I didn't really expect
and it was well received by a lot of viewers.
The number of YouTube views exceeds hundreds of thousands.
Many letters and feedback from all over the world ...
Most of our viewers are from Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria,
Jordan and Saudi Arabia
as well as the US, Canada,
Germany and Austria.
These are the official stats at our disposal.
Some friends of mine asked me to add a little more time to the original duration of the show
to allow more space for more topics to be discussed.
and for a starter we are going to add five more minutes to the original duration
thus becoming 27 minutes long
There were of course many more other requests
Some people of course asked me to wear a suit. Here you go I wore a suit just for you.
They told me to sit down because when they see me standing we feel tired [by contagion effect].
Here I am sitting down.
Little by little, [I expect that] you people would ask me [next] to change my haircut.
Anytime, I'm at your service.
Like I promised you that we'd begin to open [the topic]
[or] the minefield of early Koranic manuscripts.
A topic that a lot of Muslim researchers are steering away from
notwithstanding its significant role in understanding the evolution of Islamic literature.
So, this topic is like an ocean
and although I read a lot of research about this topic
but I still need to turn to a seasoned expert in this field for help.
Therefore, I'd like to welcome Mr Mohammad el-Mesayyah,
a Moroccan researcher in the field of early Koranic manuscripts.
He worked as an assistant [researcher/teacher] for great professors in Europe
like Edward Galle and Christoph Luxenberg
and has published many research papers on the Koran,
one of which that's very interesting that goes through The Elephant Chapter
and the myth of Abraha in Islamic tradition or folklore.
We welcome you Mr. Mohammad as a dear guest on the show.
Welcome Mr. Hamed, you and the kind audience.
Let's start with your name Mohammad el-Mesayyah.
It can be a source of misunderstanding because when it's displayed on screen,
it [the family name] can be mispronounced as al-Masih (The Messiah in English)
but the the name is of course different, el-Mesayyah.
Can you comment on that what's with the [family] name al-Mesayyah?
It's a family name that's well known in Morocco
and that's all that I can tell about this name.
- Perfect!
Have you sir ever had the chance to watch some episodes of the Box of Islam series?
What do you think about them?
- Yeah
I have watched some episodes of this show
and it's a very exciting show.
I may disagree with you sir on some points
but I generally encourage you to keep up this presentation
and to present some of the taboo subjects in a bold fashion
and to put them out on the discussion table
and to give the Arab youth a space
to search for the truth
without settling only for they're given [or fed] in their schools and ...
- In their mosques - In their mosques. Yes.
Speaking of talking about taboos,
the topic of early Koranic manuscripts is definitely one of the taboo subjects in the fields of Islamic research.
I was searching for an Arab researcher that could help me to enter into the vaults (FIGURATIVE) of manuscripts
and I found out that your number is very limited as opposed to Western researchers
who discovered the early Islamic manuscripts,
and resorted them and chronicled historically about them and wrote about them research
Why's this inadequacy and absence on the part of the Islamic researcher ...
... from the early Koranic manuscripts which mark the beginning of the Islamic tradition?
Why's the fear of delving into this field?
Yes, of course it's clearly noticeable that there's inadequacy
and negligence on the part of scholars of Islam
to reference these manuscripts and study them
and regard them as a subfield of the field of Koran studies
as they're very important
and I always recall the words of Prof. Qaddura,
an Iraqi researcher who always asks
his students to dive into these research papers,
manuscript research
because the West indeed or Westerners
have surpassed us we Arabs in this field.
- They have become ahead of us.
They have advanced a lot in this field.
Like I mentioned, Prof. Puin, Prof. François Déroche
and Marcos Gross and many others of great professors.
Why's the inadequacy?
Can inadequacy be explained by laziness with regards to the field of scientific research ...
... or instead by the fear of entering into a minefield which could produce results ...
... that might be in contradiction with Islamic dogmas?
Generally speaking, there's a state of inadequacy in all the fields of empirical (natural) sciences
and abstract (social) sciences
and settling only for the theological sciences, if you will.
Those which concern the occult
and this of course made them,
[that's] the scholars not to pay attention to the ancient heritage that became obsolete.
Sure, this could open the door for them,
to as you sir put it,
on mines from a dogmatic standpoint
in that when you refer to these old manuscripts to discover that indeed
change, development and approbation happened to the Koranic text
while what we have now in hand
is a text which had been in its last iteration
from the standpoint of diacritical marks and dots, Hamzas,
slant (Imala) and emphasis (Shadda) marks
and even the prostration (Sajda) marks.
It has all what one needs for recitation, elocution (Tajwid) and research
inside the Koranic text.
As for these manuscripts, you won't find these ...
- Luxury - Amenities and luxury, exactly
So, if someone has the latest model of a car,
why would they get back to using a 60s or 50s model ...
... that has a worn-out engine and doesn't go as much fast??
Is it possible, so to speak, to make this analogy ...
... between the evolution of the Koranic text and that of a car like the German Volkswagen ...
... that was in its early days a popular, inexpensive and basic car ...
... but over time it became now luxurious and expensive?
Is it possible or not?
I have my reservations about this term or rather this analogy
because it might be misunderstood as defamation of the sacred.
So, but really if if if ...
if we want admit from a scientific standpoint that there had been alterations linguistically in a few words.
Yeah, that had happened.
and if there had been additions and deletions in some texts or passages
which are found in manuscripts like the Sanaa Manuscript catalogued as
(DAM 01-27.1)
Yes, there had been major alterations that happened or found in these manuscripts.
We will take a look at some of these examples
I notice that you're using terms or phrases like "A change happened",
"An improvement introduced" and "evolution caught on"
while avoiding the term "corruption/forgery".
I like to make things crystal clear
and like to have open and clear answers
and taking into account that you're a scientific researcher
Was the Koranic text corrupted over time?
Yes, the word "corruption تحريف" is a harsh word terminology-wise.
I'd rather use the word "change",
"approbation" or "evolution"
instead of the word "Tahrif تحريف" (Arabic for "corruption" in this context)
because the word obviously is viewed by a lot of people
as an attack on or an attempt to put the Koranic text into question.
which represents Holy of Holies of the Islamic religion.
Understood, sure
But if we analyze it linguistically, the tri-consonant root of the word Tahrif تحريف is the verb Harraf حرَّف
which means in Arabic swapped a letter with another.
*Letter in Arabic is Harf حرف and they share the same root*
and this what did happen when we saw what happened with Sanaa Manuscripts
but I understand your point sir, of course.
That there wasn't an element of mistrust [behind this]
**HE MEANT MAL INTENT AND NOT MISTRUST**
and that the text wasn't corrupted with the goal of changing the meaning and such
but out of taking a shortcut or to make the text easier to read
or to make the task of interpreting the meaning of obscure words easier.
There wasn't a conspiracy or foul play involved, of course.
Yes... Yes
So, of course like you sir kindly pointed out that there wasn't an element of mal intent
with the purpose of changing [the meaning] but instead one of approbation,
and to make the text easier for one to read and recite it,
among others,
and what have you
Can you give us a few examples for the evolution of the manuscripts and its morphology ...
... and how the Arabic alphabets have evolved from one manuscript to another ...
... till we got to the current copy that we have in hand?
Yeah, as you know sir that the oldest Arabic script used to scribe the Koran was the Hejazi script.
So, as we are observing on screen.
Here's a screenshot of [a fragment of] the Sanaa Manuscript
catalogued as (DAM 01-27.1)
- This is taken from The Stories Chapter (No 28)
- Yes it's from The Stories Chapter, folio (sheet) No 14.
So, as you notice that the Hejazi script is quite different
to the one we use now in our copies of Koran.
For example, we see [a text that's] devoid of diacritical dots, marks and Hamzas.
If we read ...
- ((Who brings the good deed ...)) [28:84] - Yes
Mohd: Here it reads ((Who brings the good deed ...)) and the next line ...
Hamed: Let's stick just at ((Who brings the good deed ...))
Here the letter Nun ن is very similar [in its shape] to the letter Raa ر
Mohd: Yes the letter Nun
Hamed: Here the letter Jim ج has no dot underneath and no trailing Hamza ء in the end of the word جاء
i.e. it could be interpreted or parsed as manha منحا (Arabic for "course" or "turn")
or it could be interepreted as marha مرحا (Arabic for "hurray")
or even markha مرخا (A made up word)
It all depends on who came after him and placed the dot [above or below the letterform]
and thus he could change the meaning as he pleases. Mohd: Yes
Hamed: and b'elhasana بالحسنة (lit: with the good dead)
could be interpreted as b'elkhashaba بالخشبة (lit: with the wood panel)
Mohd: Yes, The letter Raa ر ...
The letter Nun ن as we see looks exactly like the letter Raa ر
in contemporary Arabic script
but the letter Raa ر as we see it here
in the word al-Ard الأرض (Arabic for the earth)
here the letter Raa ر ...
Hamed: is similar to the letter Dal د Mohd: Similar to the current letter Dal د
So, the letters changed [shape] over the ages and across scripts.
The Hejazi script is the oldest [Arabic] script.
However, we could see some differences
as you sir have talked about [earlier on]
If we take an example from the same manuscript that we're showing now.
and ...
First, it's important of course to say that a side of the Sanaa Manuscript,
the washed one
- The palimpsest - The palimpsest
The underlying original text (scriptio inferior) has been washed off
and another Koranic text has been written down on top of it
- We've just seen the upper text.
- Yes
Can you show us some of the under text which was discovered with the help of UV rays ...
... and the differences between the two sides?
- Yes
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