You may be seated.
Good morning, Your Honor.
Good morning, Ron.
This is the case of Thayer v. Thayer.
Thank you. Good day, everyone.
AUDIENCE: Good day.
Ms. Thayer, you are here today in hopes
of saving what is left of your marriage.
In doing so, you summoned your husband
Mr. Thayer to Paternity Court to prove
that not only did he father
your 19-month-old daughter Kaydence,
but also your three-your-old son, Matthew Jr.,
is that correct?
Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE LAKE: Mr. Thayer, you say you absolutely
do not trust your wife
and you are prepared to get a divorce today
when the results reveal that either one
or both kids are not yours?
That's correct, Your Honor.
JUDGE LAKE: So, Ms. Thayer,
what is the current status of your relationship with your husband?
AMBER: We don't even have sex anymore.
What married couple doesn't have sex? We're young.
It's the back and forth arguing all the time.
We argue so much that my son
is starting to get mad and yell and repeat
some of the stuff that we say
and I wanna prove to him that these are his kids.
I've done nothing wrong to him
for him not to trust me
and for him to say that these aren't his kids
and I have five kids total and he treats
the three oldest kids better than he treats his own kids
and I don't feel like that's fair.
Um, and I mean, this is the last resort.
So this doubt is wreaking havoc in your marriage?
MATTHEW: Yeah, in my mind,
we're basically separated 'cause we don't sleep
in the same room no more.
When we're around each other, she's on her phone
and we just sit in the same house
and we don't even communicate no more.
So I don't feel that connection with her
or the kids for that matter.
And all of this is because of the doubts.
MATTHEW: Yes, Your Honor.
With regard to the paternity
of the two youngest children?
Yes, Your Honor.
I wanna understand how this all started.
When we first met, she told me that it was clear
that she didn't want no relationship.
She just wants friends with benefits
and I wanted the same thing.
I didn't want a relationship at that time.
Ms. Thayer, what's this open thing?
You do what you do, I do what we do,
we're in a relationship, what is that about?
I've been in some really bad relationships
to where I just didn't trust men,
I even went through a phase where I started dating girls for a little while,
JUDGE LAKE: So what you're saying
is this whole open thing that you agreed to
was not because you wanted to have access
and opportunity to sleep with other people.
It was so that you didn't have
to expect fidelity
or expect him to not cheat?
AMBER: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE LAKE: At some point, you find out you're pregnant?
Yes. That is correct, Your Honor.
And what happens from there?
I didn't know what to say
because I wasn't planning on having any more kids.
I mean, I had three girls already,
so I was already a single mom for the three girls.
JUDGE LAKE Were you all using protection?
No.
Well, then you were planning on having another baby.
AMBER: That is correct.
(APPLAUSE)
Fail to plan, plan to fail, so...
MATTHEW: And, uh, and then I believe she was pregnant
before we even got together
because Matthew was born three weeks early
and she told me about three weeks in that she was pregnant.
So that's where that doubt comes in for him.
So you felt like you met, you all were sleeping together
not using protection. But then when she came up pregnant,
you thought it was a little too soon?
Yes. And that's after he was born
that I started putting those pieces together because...
JUDGE LAKE: You began doing the math?
Yes.
Ms. Thayer, I need to know from you, do you remember
around which date you felt like
you conceived Matthew?
I believe I conceived Matthew September 10th
and the reason that I feel that way
is because that night, he had a hotel party
and after his friends left,
we stayed and we pretty much...
We had sex about three or four times that night alone.
I mean, he knows my conception date.
This is not new to him.
So your conception date, you say, was around September 10th?
AMBER: Yes.
All right, 2012.
So if we calculate,
the child should be born somewhere between
June 2nd and June 9th.
When was Matthew born?
May 18th.
JUDGE LAKE: Oh, so there's your doubt.
Yes, Ma'am.
JUDGE LAKE: And look, the babies do come early,
but you claim she was with somebody else
approximately three weeks before?
Yeah.
JUDGE LAKE: So you feel emotional because...
It hurts, I mean, I love him or I wouldn't have married him.
This is the person that I wanna spend my life with.
MATTHEW: This is my first child too, Your Honor.
I was excited because I didn't have no kids.
I didn't have a family or anything
and she was gonna give that to me.
And I wanted that.
This is something that I really do want.
I want a family of my own that I can grow with
and I can watch them grow and I can teach them
all the things that they're supposed to do
in their life that I didn't do in mine.
JUDGE LAKE: And so, why do you doubt her so much?
Just because of some of the things that she says
when we do get in arguments,
she brings up the fact that she would sleep with somebody else.
That's puts a big, big seed in my head
thinking that she's gonna go do that and I work 11 hour days.
So there's plenty of time during the day
for her to put the kids down to sleep
and go mess with somebody,
clean up, and then I come home and give her a kiss
like I normally do when I come home.
So, because of these trust issues,
you've asked the court to administer
a lie detector test?
MATTHEW: Yes.
JUDGE LAKE: We did in fact do that
and I will have those results for you in just a bit.
MATTHEW: Thank you.
JUDGE LAKE: All right.
I'd like to go to your doubts surrounding Kaydence.
That is your younger child.
You all have two children together potentially.
Yeah, 'cause around the time that she was conceived,
we weren't really having sex.
JUDGE LAKE: You find out she's pregnant again
and immediately doubt?
Yes. How are we gonna have a kid if we don't have sex?
JUDGE LAKE: So you testified earlier, Ms. Thayer,
that you were in a sexless marriage?
AMBER: Yes. I mean, when he's talking about with Kaydence,
I uprooted my whole life for him.
So for me to uproot my whole life
into all of this stuff for him
and then for him to turn around and say stuff like,
"I have doubts. I don't think that these are..."
I'm only around you.
I'm not around anybody else.
I don't see why you would think I would waste my time to move...
But I don't know that, Your Honor.
That doesn't...
I'm not so certain
that she's only with me.
Because I'm not there all day every day with them.
We lived with his family...
JUDGE LAKE: So what he was saying
is during that trip, he claims you weren't intimate?
We were, we were. At least four times, we were.
And the house that we were staying in,
it was my aunt's house in Mexico,
so, it was almost impossible for us to be intimate.
JUDGE LAKE: When you talk about
your lack of trust, it's real.
I can see it in your eyes. You really don't trust her.
Yes.
JUDGE LAKE: What in the world
has gotten you to the point where you can't trust this woman?
I've seen text messages between her and somebody else.
Old times they spent together and how much fun they had
and just leaves me to one thought and she's talking to another man.
He doesn't understand. I wouldn't have married him. I wouldn't...
I've been in so many relationships throughout my life
that I chose him to marry.
This is the person that I chose to marry.
This is the person
that I chose to spend...
And I chose you too.
That you were the only one like...
But not as much as I've caught him in his phone.
We were having sex one night
and he rolls over.
We haven't even put our clothes on yet
and he's texting another woman, he loves her.
So you've never seen me text, "I love you," to anyone else.
This was after I'd seen the messages that she was sending.
So when I'd seen that she would...
That she wasn't... That she wasn't all the way faithful with me,
of course I'm not gonna be
all the way faithful with somebody else and...
He's just started unlocking his phone since we got married.
He just started unlocking his phone.
His phone has been locked...
MATTHEW: That's not true.
...our whole relationship until around the time
about a month and a half before we got married
then he unlocks his phone.
That's not true.
AMBER: I'm allowed to get in his phone
but his phone stayed locked. It stayed locked.
MATTHEW: My phone did not have a lock.
Well, now, you know,
she knows how to get in your phone.
Mr. Thayer, you know, as I listen to this testimony,
do you think this is insecurity
or infidelity because they're two different things?
The arguments that we had when she was first pregnant with Matthew
about a month into the pregnancy
is when she saw those messages
and we did actually separate for about three months.
Have you ever been cheated on in the past?
MATTHEW: Yes, I have.
Okay.
I lost trust in all women as far as relationships go.
But that's not my fault though.
So that's like me saying
I've been in a bunch of relationships.
MATTHEW: But the things that you say
when we get in arguments, though.
That's what I'm talking about.
It is tit-for-tat
and I get petty sometimes. I absolutely do.
But a lot of this stuff that you've done,
what you need to realize, a lot of the stuff
that you've done is hurt me a lot
and I'm tired of being hurt.
I'm tired of walking on egg shells.
I'm tired of being miserable. It's not fair.
It's not fair to my daughter...
MATTHEW: But you're not the only one that's hurt though.
It's not fair to our son. It's not fair at all.
I wouldn't have named your son after you.
I wouldn't have gave you a Jr.
if I am 1,000% sure that these are your kids.
MATTHEW: And that's why I'm here so I can find that out for sure.
JUDGE LAKE: Ms. Thayer, you are in court today
saying you have never cheated on your husband.
I have never cheated on him.
The only time that I've ever messed
with anybody else is the break that he's talking about
because what happened was, when I saw that text
in his phone that I told you about,
I asked him about it, he shrugged his shoulders
like it didn't matter and that's all that I got out of him.
I didn't get a why... I asked him why he was doing it.
"Do you not wanna be together?
"What is the issue?"
MATTHEW: I did tell you when we had that argument.
Because I've been a single mom for so long
that I'm not trying to go
into another relationship and then just be like,
"Oh, well, I'm gonna be a single mom again."
That's not what I want. He's attached to my other kids.
And that's why these DNA results mean so much
because it's not just about Matthew and Kaydence.
AMBER: This is not boyfriend and girlfriend.
We took vows to be together.
I'm gonna stand by those.
I'm going to stand by those. These are his kids.
This is gonna make or break us.
Because you're prepared, Mr. Thayer,
that you are gonna leave if these children are not yours?
Yes, Your Honor.
I'm supporting three other kids that aren't mine
and I don't wanna feel played in this situation
to where I'm supporting the whole household
and nobody's related to me.
Nobody's my seed
and to carry on my legacy, so...
JUDGE LAKE: All right, we're gonna get
to the DNA results in just a moment.
But first, I wanna get to the lie detector.
So we did, in fact,
have her meet with a licensed polygraph expert.
Let me have those lie detector results, please.
RON: Yes, Judge.
JUDGE LAKE: Thank you.
Now, Ms. Thayer, I have to ask you,
is there anything
you'd like to tell us before I read these results?
Like I said, the only people
that I messed with was during the break that we had
that he's talking about where I moved out.
JUDGE LAKE: Okay.
Ms. Thayer, you were asked, "In the last four years,
"have you had sexual contact with anyone
"other than the two men you have previously disclosed?"
You said, "No."
The lie detector determined
you were being deceptive.
Questions number two,
"Since the first time you had sex with Matthew Sr.,
"have you had sexual intercourse with anyone
"other than him, since then?"
You said, "No."
The lie detector determined
you were being deceptive.
Mr. Thayer?
MATTHEW: See? These are giving me my answers.
So that just puts more...
In fact, more doubt in my mind
that these kids aren't mine.
Because Matthew doesn't look anything like me, neither does Kaydence.
AMBER: They look just like you,
everything, the chin, the cheeks,
the shape of the face, everything.
Well, obviously, you're lying, so we can't believe you.
Wow.
So, Ms. Thayer, this is difficult.
Now, you pretty much failed both questions
on the lie detector test
and that's why you're here in court today.
I understand.
You heard the phrase, "The truth shall set you free."
JUDGE LAKE: I'm going to ask you to free yourself
and tell the truth.
What is the truth?
Because I could see that smirk on your face?
I've never cheated on him,
but like I said, during the break,
it may have been more than two people,
but I've never cheated on him.
I've never cheated on him while we're together.
MATTHEW: She's lying about that. What else is she lying about?
The two...
Okay.
So this is going way beyond.
(EXHALES DEEPLY)
I see your body language.
I sit in this bench day after day
and I know when people aren't being fully honest.
It's all over you.
MATTHEW: And I see that too, Your Honor.
Is there anything else you need to say?
I mean, I've done stuff to hurt him
because he hurt me and in the end,
I'm only hurting them and that's it.
So I mean, right now,
it's not about me, it's not about my feelings,
it's not about us, it's about our kids
and I need him to know that these are his kids.
And the last four years of my life weren't just wasted.
JUDGE LAKE: So, as you talk about doing things to hurt him
because you felt hurt, do you really know
who both of these children, who their father is?
I am 1,000% sure that they are his kids.
MATTHEW: And we've heard that a thousand times too.
So, we know that the kids looking like me
is not always a 100% accurate.
And then, when people say they're 1,000% sure,
it always goes left.
At the end of the day if they're not mine,
I'm not gonna be with somebody I can't trust.
And hopefully, this fixes it
because I do have feelings for her, Your Honor,
and I've spent, like, the last four years of my life...
I've lost my family behind her,
because they don't approve of her having multiple kids.
They don't approve of my color, my skin color.
It's not... I've been harassed
in my inbox on Facebook,
I've been harassed face to face by his family about the color of my skin.
I've witnessed all those instances, Your Honor.
I've told them all
and that's one of the reasons why I don't talk to them
because if they can't approve...
If they can't be happy for me
because I'm happy, then they...
I don't need them in my life.
(APPLAUSE)
Blood or not, I mean...
So, you've pretty much chosen her over your family?
Yes, Your Honor. Behind these kids
because I thought I was gonna have a family
and I thought I was gonna be able to build something with her.
But the doubts in my mind, I need to put to rest.
All right. That's what we're here to do
and I'll say the stakes could not be any higher here.
Ron, I'd like to go to the results, please.
We have two results.
Here you go, Your Honor.
Thank you, sir.
The first result is for Kaydence.
In the case of Thayer v. Thayer,
when it comes to 19-month-old Kaydence Thayer,
it has been determined by this court,
Mr. Thayer, you are the father.
AMBER: I told you.
One of them. One of the two.
AMBER: I told you.
We still need Matthew.
Just because one of them is mine doesn't mean I'm gonna stay.
JUDGE LAKE: It's the first time I've seen you smile today.
Yeah, I'm happy.
I have the second result for you.
Are you ready?
Yes.
JUDGE LAKE: These results were prepared by DNA Diagnostics
and they read as follows.
In the case of Thayer v. Thayer,
when it comes to three-year-old Matthew Thayer Jr.,
it has been determined by this court...
JUDGE LAKE: Mr. Thayer,
you are the father.
I told you.
(APPLAUSE)
Can I give her... Can I give her a hug?
JUDGE LAKE: Absolutely.
I love you.
I love you too.
MATTHEW: I'm at ease now.
JUDGE LAKE: You look like it.
(CHUCKLES) Yeah.
JUDGE LAKE: I could see you over there,
you were a bundle of nerves.
You really didn't know?
No. And that put a bigger wedge between us.
I think counseling would help that out.
JUDGE LAKE: And we have that for you.
I wanna say this to you both,
you're still married.
MATTHEW: Yes.
So you still have a shot at this.
I do wanna have a family and I do wanna build with her
and this just solidifies the fact
that I'm not gonna go nowhere.
JUDGE LAKE: Good. A marriage is a time
that we really are combining the lives
and the experiences of two people
trying to come together and it can be difficult.
But most importantly, there's power in what you say.
Your words, they either build a relationship
or they can break it.
And I see that now.
JUDGE LAKE: So you see that.
I think you did.
And I'm sorry
for the things that I've done to you
and I apologize
for even giving you suspicions
of them not being your children. (SNIFFLES)
JUDGE LAKE: Wonderful.
I'm sorry for everything
I've done to you in the past as well.
And so, look at all that you have to look forward to.
I wish you all the very best of luck. You have a beautiful family.
BOTH: Thank you.
Court is adjourned.
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