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Julia Freeland Fisher: We talk so much in education about human capital shortages and crises at the
teacher level, our world is awash in human capital.
We just haven't designed schools to reach out and pull it in.
Frederick Hess: Julia Freeland Fisher, great to have you here today.
Julia Freeland Fisher: Thank you.
Frederick Hess: You've written a new book, "Who You Know," out from Wiley publishers.
"Who You Know" it's an education book, and what's it about?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah, well, first, thanks so much for having me.
The book is called "Who You Know," and the subtitle sort of explains what it's about,
which is unlocking innovations that expand student's networks.
And we really took a look at in schools today, what are the emerging innovations that either
show up students networks of caring adults or expand and diversify students networks
to people they may not otherwise meet?
Frederick Hess: So, you say, "Student networks," and I'm immediately thinking of like these
networking things where people sit around and schmooze and that's not what you're talking
about?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Right.
I was saying to someone the other day, "This is not, like, mocktail parties in schools."
This is really thinking about if you step back a second and think about maybe how you
got to where you are today, networks really contain value.
It's what economists or political scientists would call social capital.
And students inherit a network, we all inherit a network.
And the question we ask is, "Could schools be organized to add new relationships into
student's networks that could help them both explore what they want to do down the line
career-wise, maybe forge new connections into the knowledge economy, and also ensure that
they have access to a web of caring, adults?"
Frederick Hess: So, I'll make sure I just understand.
Let's keep it simple.
So, if we're thinking about when my boys start school, when you say, "Their network."
What are individuals who would be in that network?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Sure.
So, right now, they have a network: so families, community neighbors.
When you enter the school building, you have peers, you have teachers and probably some
non-teacher adults in the school.
Right?
That's a web already.
That's an existing network.
And what we wanted to ask is, first of all, are schools even measuring these networks?
They're not by and large.
And second of all, are there gaps in student's networks that we could design school to better
address?
Frederick Hess: So, for instance?
Julia Freeland Fisher: For instance, if a student is growing up in a rural community where there are no
neurosurgeons, maybe has a little bit of interest in becoming a neurosurgeon.
But how the heck is even going to explore that if he can't meet a neurosurgeon?
So, we're looking at, for example, models that would, over video chat, bring a neurosurgeon
into a classroom to put a student into relationship with someone in that career path.
Frederick Hess: So, we're talking about network.
I mean, I guess, I'm immediately thinking of networks or people that, like, you talk
to regularly.
But that sounds like that's...the way you're talking about it sounds a little different
from that?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Sure.
So, I encourage people, and this is a simplistic mental model, but to think of your network
as sort of a web with a dense center that gets sort of looser and looser as it goes
outwards.
And sociologists refer to folks in that inner circle as your strong ties, the folks that
you regularly interact with that you have higher rates of trust with, that you're more
likely to help out.
But we also, as we know, have looser acquaintances.
You're, like, maybe I would call a weak tie in my life.
I've met you a couple times, delighted to know you, but I wouldn't ask to borrow money
or have you look after my dogs.
Exactly.
Frederick Hess: Or both.
Julia Freeland Fisher: Or both, exactly.
Pay me to look after my own dogs.
But what's really interesting in the sociology research, and you may have heard this term,
is that our weak ties actually contain value as well.
Those acquaintances can open new doors for us, can lend us new information.
And so when you think about a young person, we certainly want them to have a network of
caring adults, but we also need to be thinking about who are their acquaintances that are
expanding their horizons and helping them potentially gain access to opportunities they
might not otherwise have access to.
Frederick Hess: So, how much of this do schools do today?
Julia Freeland Fisher: It's a good question.
I mean, in some ways, we don't know because we don't measure it.
In the book, we talk about, sort of in the later chapters, some of the measurement techniques
that schools are using.
And you may have heard of this study out of Harvard Graduate School of Education called
"The Post-it Study," where inside of schools, administrators have started to put up a roster
of students names, and have teachers and other adults in the school put stickers next to
the students with whom they feel that they have a strong relationship.
And it reveals really interesting things, right?
There are kids in schools today who don't have a single strong relationship with an
adult in that building, which I think is shocking.
But that's not a regular practice in schools.
And so that's sort of in-school networks.
There's certain measurement techniques, but we're not really using them.
More broadly, we're hardly looking at this at all.
We're hardly looking at, "Okay, can we sit down and think about who do you know in your
life?
What sorts of assets do you have that we as a school could tap into?
And where are some of these gaps where you may have ambitions and not know anyone who
can help you achieve those ambitions?"
Frederick Hess: Do we have any guidelines or sense of how many adults you need to have
strong ties with as a kid to have a good shot?
Julia Freeland Fisher: To thrive?
Frederick Hess: To thrive, yeah.
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah.
So, there's some research out of...there's a group called the Search Institute that has
been studying what they call developmental relationships.
And they really think of it as a web.
So not one, but not 10, if that makes sense.
Other research out of America's Promise Alliance who spent a lot of time, obviously, they've
looked at graduation rates over the years, but have started to hone in on the fact that
caring adults are a key buffer to keep kids in school.
And their research shows that you need at least one anchor, adult.
So, one person who's for sure looking out for you, who can then activate a web around
you.
Does that make sense?
Frederick Hess: Mm-hmm.
Julia Freeland Fisher: So, you need one especially strong anchor who can then activate a network of
five, six, seven caring adults who can help buffer a risk.
Frederick Hess: And so are those schools or communities or kinds of kids where they've got
... or much more likely to have those adults in places where they're much rarer, or they...?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Say more.
Frederick Hess: So, it sounds like there's probably some kids come to school who are much more
likely to have these networks in place.
Do we know anything about those kids versus other kids?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Sure.
Frederick Hess: And then, you mentioned rural schools and the neurosurgeon at the
beginning.
Is that generally the case with rural versus urban, for instance?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Do we have data.
Sure.
So, the phrase I use is that there is slim but troubling data on this.
Just to be very candid, I don't think we have enough data to make big generalizations.
But here's some of the data we have.
We know that low-income students whose parents are less educated report far fewer non-family
adults in their lives.
Meaning they have kinship networks, but they're not reporting informal mentors like coaches,
teachers, religious leaders in their lives at the same rate as students with more educated
parents.
So, that's one gap we have seen measures around.
Another is that one in three students, according to the mentoring project, sorry, the mentoring
partnership grow up without a mentor.
So, we know that there are gaps there.
Another data point is that parent's networks and this is super intuitive, but we have data
to support it, parents networks are differently networked into the knowledge economy.
So, more educated parents know twice the number of CEOs, professors, politicians.
Right, and...
Frederick Hess: I'm sorry for them.
Julia Freeland Fisher: Exactly.
And I want to emphasize here, we're sort of mixing two different advantages that relationships
afford you in life, and particularly when you're young.
And one is to get by, and one is to get ahead.
So, you may have heard of the famous Harvard grant study on Adult development.
It's the longest running study on sort of health and happiness.
And what they found was that warm relationships are one of those leading predictors of longevity,
and happiness, and knowledge.
So, that's totally separate from whether you get to become a neurosurgeon or work on Wall
Street, right?
That's about sort of thriving as a human in society.
And I think we need to be thinking about, do our students have access to those warm
relationships?
On the other side of the equation, an estimated 50% of jobs come through personal connections.
So, when we're talking about labor market outcomes and opportunity, we actually have
to not just be thinking about these warm and fuzzy relationships that increase longevity
and happiness, but also about who do you have access to that you can tap into when you're
looking to enter the labor market?
Be socially mobile, pursue your passion.
Frederick Hess: So, I mean, it's not just that these networks intuitively matter.
I mean, you're arguing there's real reason to believe they actually matter for whether
you get into college, where you work?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah, absolutely.
And I, like, the way we the phrase we use in the book is that this is an asset and the
opportunity equation, right?
We talk a lot in Ed reform ad nauseum, maybe about achievement gaps, right?
Everyone can cite troubling achievement gaps, and we're sort of saying, "Wait a second,
there's also relationship gaps and those contribute to the overall opportunity equation in America."
Frederick Hess: Okay.
Julia, so when you think about this example, teachers sharing information with the school
about how well they know kids, seems like there's at least two possible challenges.
One, some teachers might be hesitant to admit they know a kid well because maybe the administration
is going to look too closely.
But the bigger problem might be that teachers don't want to admit that they don't know students.
And so do you wind up getting unreliable information?
Julia Freeland Fisher: I think it's a good question.
I mean, I think it's almost an R&D question in measurement because this is such a rare
exercise happening in schools right now.
And I also think...I talked to a group of teachers in LA Unified about this research
a couple months ago.
And one raised a really interesting initiative at her school that felt like it could neutralize
some of these concerns, which is that, if it turned out that there was student who a
teacher was having trouble forming a close relationship with, just sort of the chemistry
wasn't there, they would look for other adults in the school who could mentor them.
So, I think if there's a school-wide culture of not necessarily saying every student and
teacher have to have a strong relationship, but saying every student should have an adult
who knows them well in the school, I think that's really critical.
I think to also neutralize the fear around appearing too close to a student, we really
have to have a conversation about the fact that the better teachers know students, the
better student outcomes are.
And there's actually data to back that up.
But that's missing right now, in a more clinical assessment of sort of, "Are you a good instructional
coach," as opposed to, "Are you able to forge relationships with students, understand them,
and be able to then teach to them more effectively?"
Frederick Hess: Yeah.
I believe we've almost literally taken out of the equation.
We talked about effective teachers.
It's do you move reading and math assessment scores at the end of the year?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yep, absolutely.
Frederick Hess: So, what are a couple of things schools can do?
So, on the something like we pipe this neurosurgeon into a rural school.
You're not developing a relationship with them, they probably not going to help you
get a job.
So, if you think about the advice in the book to real schools, to real educators, to families.
Julia Freeland Fisher: To actually doing this.
Frederick Hess: How do you help them think through?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah.
So, can I be wonky first for a second?
Frederick Hess: Please.
Julia Freeland Fisher: So, this is where the theory of disruptive innovation, which is what we study at the
organization where I work, the Clayton Christensen Institute.
This is where disruptive innovation becomes a really interesting lens to understand what's
happening.
Frederick Hess: And say a word about disruption for folks who don't know.
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah.
So, disruption, you hear this term all the time out in Silicon Valley where I grew up,
and now there's like millennial entrepreneurs who are all going to disrupt everything.
And colloquially, people use it to mean just something new and successful.
In reality, it means something very specific, which is an innovation that competes on affordability
and access as opposed to traditional measures of quality.
So, Sony's first Walkman couldn't compete at all without RCAs fancy radios and TVs back
in the day, but the Walkman were super cheap, and they were a little bit crummy.
But teenagers who started buying them didn't care, and over time, Sony got better and better
and disrupted RCA.
So that's kind of the process of disruptive innovation.
It's a competitive...it's a theory of competition.
And we take that theory and look at what's happening in the education sector to understand
which innovations are affording more access to high-quality learning, or new learning
pathways, and in this case, new relationships, and how did those stand to grow over time?
It's like disruption.
Frederick Hess: I like that, that's good.
Julia Freeland Fisher: So, the reason why this is an answer to your initial question of what can schools
actually do?
Because this is online neurologist, what have you, lawyer, whoever you're networking a student
with online is not an actual relationship.
And I'd argue that that's the thing people say when disruptive innovations are afoot,
that we look at them and we're like, "That's crummy.
That's not a real connection.
That's not a real relationship."
And so we sort of dismiss them.
And I think that especially happens when we're looking at schools where conventional wisdom
is the stronger the relationship, the better.
And what we want to cut through is, yes and weak ties, and even brief interactions can
really be conduits to new information opportunities.
And these technologies could be designed to, over time, nurture stronger and stronger relationships.
Right?
So, one attribute I look at in technology tools, and we've been mapping a whole bunch
of tools that expand access to networks.
One attribute we look at is, is there a way to re-engage with that person?
Can a student reach back out?
And that's assigned to me like, "Maybe they're not even doing it yet."
But have we designed these tools with that trajectory of improvement in mind to continuously
strengthen or diversify relationships as the case may be?
Frederick Hess: What does that look like?
What's something like that?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah, sure.
So, we looked at a number of online mentoring tools that are emerging, and this...
I actually hate the word mentor because it's this capacious term that means everything
and therefore nothing.
But a lot of these tools are in the guidance college going career advice category, right?
So, you can log on and talk to a mentor as you're trying to navigate the college application
process.
And some of those tools would be more like just on demand advice where you can get accurate
information from a chatbot.
I'm not interested in those, right, because a chatbot I can't go back to for advice later.
The chatbot can't get to know me necessarily in the way that they could offer me an opportunity.
But there are tools out there, when we talk about in the book student success agency,
which are networking high school students with near-peer mentors who are in college.
Frederick Hess: So, "Near-peer," meaning?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Meaning the high schoolers are junior, senior year and the mentors are in college.
Frederick Hess: So, not necessarily geographically near?
Julia Freeland Fisher: No, sorry, near-peer is a term of art in the mentoring world meaning "of a close
age."
Frederick Hess: Gottcha.
Julia Freeland Fisher: And research shows that students are actually sometimes more likely to trust and
form closer bonds with people who they see more like them, they can identify with.
Right?
And through Student Success Agency, you literally have an agent who you can go to and ask these
questions repeatedly over time.
It's fully virtual.
But over time, you get to know one another.
So, it's not just a one-off pamphlet of college advice, which has been a little bit of the
convention over the past years, as we try and help students get through the gauntlet
of college applications, it's a relationship on the other side of a virtual platform.
Frederick Hess: And do we know anything about the impact of a program like that?
Julia Freeland Fisher: So, we're still early days.
A lot of the measures are dissatisfying to the existing flash old guard of Ed reformers
because they feel very input-based.
Right?
So, Student Success Agency is a great example.
There are some statistics that suggest that in high-need schools and large comprehensive
school, students get only 38 minutes a year with a guidance counselor, which I think is
like a human rights violation.
I think it's insane.
Student Success Agency has gotten to 38 minutes a month.
Right?
So, we're seeing a switch in dosage, we don't yet have great outcomes data on a lot of these.
Tools that have been around for longer, because a lot of the tools we've looked at are really
still in startup phase, but there are some that have been around for a longer.
One called iCouldBe, iCouldBe.org is a nonprofit online mentoring organization.
And they have some really compelling data.
They've been around for two decades showing increases in student's sense of self-advocacy,
expanded career ambitions.
And then this one, I think, is fascinating and is a whole other research project, which
is the fact that students actually show that they are finding in real life face-to-face
mentors as a result of having an online mentor.
So, there's a low stakes sort of practice of interacting with an adult in the online
environment that's leading them to grow their networks offline, which is pretty exciting.
So, that's an outcome.
Yes.
Frederick Hess: So, you talk to parents or teachers about this.
Are there things that they should know to ask?
Are there things they should be wondering about that people haven't been thinking about?
Julia Freeland Fisher: About just generally, social capital or...?
Frederick Hess: About social capital, but particularly about these networks?
Are there...?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah.
I mean, I think...
Frederick Hess: I'm a parent and I want to know, how do I expand my kid's network?
What should I ask my school about what they're doing or what they should doing?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah.
So, I think this is sort of a no-brainer, but, like, do we even have a baseline, right?
Do we even know the social assets that a school may have but it's not tapping?
Because one of the things that, like, sort of blows my mind when I step back from the
past three years of doing this research is we talk so much in education about human capital
shortages and crises at the teacher level, our world is awash in human capital.
We just haven't designed schools to reach out and pull it in, whether that's in the
form of volunteers or sort of part-time folks coming in and out of schools, community members,
experts.
So, I think getting that baseline data and then getting almost an outer ring of data
of what is around our school that we could be tapping into from a human capital perspective
and we're not.
I know I've talked a lot about technology as an online tool to interact, but there's
also a number of platforms starting to emerge that helps school take stock of those local
assets and coordinate them because I can see in your eyes, the logistical nightmare of
doing this is perceived sometimes to be insurmountable.
Frederick Hess: You know, and I think one of the interesting things here is, obviously,
folks who've written about the erosion of social capital.
So, Bob Putnam, Charles Murray.
One of the things they talk about is that youth used to be surrounded by institutions,
which should do this: churches, youth groups.
And one of the things I hear you pointing out is especially for kids who aren't in the
more educated households, a lot of that stuff has fallen by the wayside.
So, is part of what you're doing talking about ways that schools can start to stand in for
some of the stuff that's not there?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah.
I knew you were gonna ask this question Rick, so... but I still don't have...
I think this is actually a debate we need to have in the reform conversation because
I anchored on school as a core institution that could, to your point, start to fill in.
I don't think school is the only institution that can do this.
Right.
In one of the chapters in the book, we highlight the story of a composer named Bear McCreary.
Have you heard of this guy?
He's kind of the breakout composer of our generation.
He scored stuff like "The Walking Dead" and some popular horror films, and...
Frederick Hess: Which says something about...?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Our generation, yes, or might not.
My limited knowledge of pop culture.
But his story is really interesting because he was sort of a self-professed bored cocky
teenager, not that engaged.
And he went to a Rotary luncheon in a small town in Washington, where he was growing up,
sort of told his story, wanted to go back to school, didn't want to talk to the awkward
old men in the room.
And this guy comes up to him afterwards and he's like, "I think you should meet my friend."
He's sort of, like, dismissive and it turns out his friend was a guy named Elmer Bernstein,
who's the composer of "Last Generation," and eventually met him and became his protégé.
And he calls it a cosmic coincidence.
But when sociologist would look at that, they would say, "That's actually not totally a
cosmic coincidence that was an institution that brokered that connection."
And I think we lose sight of that, in our institutional designs, not only for the reasons
that you described of fewer people are going to church, they're less civic membership.
But even the way we've designed school as this bizarrely insular institution that doesn't
let kids out and doesn't let outsiders in, even though school could be that broker.
Frederick Hess: So, I'd just got to ask about where this sits with a couple of other things
that education reform has been about, and so much...?
Julia Freeland Fisher: As you know all too well.
Frederick Hess: So, when we think about, for instance, where there's been such an emphasis
on assessment and testing and that kind of data.
And how does it sit alone?
Is this partly a critique of that emphasis?
Is this a correction?
How do those two sit side by side?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah, it's a really good question.
So, I want to emphasize, again, I'll go back to the economic terms.
This is not saying social capital can replace human capital.
Human capital is what you know, what you can do, and the labor market will pay you for.
This is just saying social capital matters alongside human capital in the opportunity
equation.
So, nothing about testing runs afoul of saying, "We need to network students into opportunity."
We need to be investing in both.
And in fact, the research shows that returns on your network increase at higher education
levels, which really tells us that we need to be doing these in tandem.
Frederick Hess: But it...does this suggest that we worry sometimes about the amount of time
and energy devoted to reading and math instruction, test preparation?
It seems that those things probably come in some part at the expense of...
Julia Freeland Fisher: A trade-off.
Frederick Hess: ...opening up schools, field trips, things which expose kids to network
possibilities?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yes, along these other measures.
I don't disagree.
I do think...And one of the things we started tracking when we were looking at the technology
market earlier on was how many companies are being pulled into becoming curriculum companies
as opposed to network expanding companies because that's where the demand is, right?
And some have had to go that direction to sustain themselves.
And I think paying attention to that trade-off is really key.
I think you're getting in a different thing, which is, again, I'm not against testing.
But in the absence of measures for these other things, we're going to always fall back on
testing as the metric that we focus all of our energy and dollars on.
Frederick Hess: And where does this sit in terms of the school choice conversation?
Are they two different conversations?
Is choice problematic?
Is it helpful?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah.
So, I'll answer that in a kind of roundabout way, which is how I think...we think about
choice at the Christensen Institute.
Because early days, we were very clear that charter schools are not disruptive relative
to traditional schools because they're still serving mainstream consumers, which is a wonky
point.
But key to the thing I'm about to say, which is we're more interested in instructional
choice than school choice.
So, how are we expanding the pathways available to a student, whether that's in a charter
or a district school?
Because a lot of charter schools have actually replicated very traditional instructional
models, some of them getting fabulously better results, others not, right?
But they haven't actually necessarily innovated around the instructional model to the degree
that we think would lead to better student outcomes at the level of individual students.
So, I think that I'm excited about school systems that are trying to multiply the pathways,
we call them slots in the book, the slots through which students can learn.
And I think that's happening right now in both the charter and district sector, with
charters having obviously some more leeway to do so.
Frederick Hess: Last question.
What's one piece of advice you would give to school reformer-types out of the book?
What's one thing that they can do better?
Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah.
I mean, I think we really have to be honest about the ingredients to opportunity right
now.
I think a lot of people in that conversation got where they are today not just because
they worked the hardest, but because of who they know.
And that's not a bad thing.
That can sound very cynical.
I don't think that's a bad thing at all.
I think all of this life is a fundamentally social endeavor.
But we have to own how we got to where we are and think about what does that mean for
designing the right experiences for all students.
Frederick Hess: Julia, that was fascinating.
Thank you so much for the conversation.
I think folks will get a lot out of the book.
It's now available and looking forward to a more robust conversation about how we do
right by kids.
Julia Freeland Fisher: Thank you.
Pleasure to know you.
Frederick Hess: Good to see you.
Hey, everyone.
That's the end of our discussion with Julia Freeland Fisher.
Thanks for watching.
If you enjoyed what you saw, remember to like the video or leave us a comment.
And be sure to check out the rest of our videos and research from AEI.
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